CARS Class Rule Change Proposal

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NoCoast

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AnthonyLatham
For me this was really the heart of the issue. We needed a class that would help produce more Doug Shepard-like drivers and I believe we now have it in Canada even though it's competely removed from the reality of the automotive enthusiast industry.

Ha.

That last part of the quote wasn't mine.

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2015 Subaru WRX
Traded the Audi for the above
Sold the 1993 Honda Civic EG w/B16A Conversion to the Raw Racing boys
6 bicycles because, you know, global warming and all

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john vanlandingham

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AnthonyLatham

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Tom B
Doug Shepherd would smoke 90% of the 2wd field in a Geo.

For me this was really the heart of the issue. We needed a class that would help produce more Doug Shepard-like drivers and I believe we now have it in Canada.

HUZHAAA!!!

Tavarich Lathamski you are a Structualist! The structure does not produce above ordinary results. That comes from inside the individual. The structure (organisation) give the person with the drive a tableau on which he can carry out his art.

YES! Even the playing field as much as possible so the talent can shine forth

The thinking that other people by manipulating rules and regulations can "spark" something inside Joe Blow's skull is wrong thinking...

AGREED, if we are talking about Jo Blow the competitor. Let true talent shine forth.

The question you are grappling with is where are the people that want to test themselves and have the drive to stick with the sport long enough to accumulate enough experience to do well...

My belief in as stable a rules set as possible should help in this regard

Obviously, with the shift in who is mainly in the sport to the current mainly desk-bound, white collar , more than average affluence type people, we have seen a shift from emphasis on "doing" to the dominant social model of "consumption".
And the problem of finding MORE people with internal "drive" and "grit" is now far harder....

MORE FUN FOR MORE PEOPLE IS A GOOD IDEA

This is the heart of the question is many areas including schooling of our children..
Very fundamental differences in how different people regard and approach challenges and uncertainty.
And this dichotomy is reflected in "real world" things like the increasingly polarized politics in both my country and yours.

Serious shit.

Yup.

---

2015 Subaru WRX
Traded the Audi for the above
Sold the 1993 Honda Civic EG w/B16A Conversion to the Raw Racing boys
6 bicycles because, you know, global warming and all

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Tom B
One class: 2wd.

This! I don't get the two classes. I will go beat and get beaten by a turbo car just as happily as I will Derik's G2 M3 or other fast NA car. I enjoy the challenge, I enjoy getting beaten but seeing the gaps close down event to event, even if by very minor amounts.

G2 people let us unite and enter G5 and that will be that (unless there is some rule somewhere that makes that not possible).

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John Reed
John Reed Racing
www.johnreedracing.com
johnreedracing@gmail.com

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John Reed

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Tom B
One class: 2wd.

This! I don't get the two classes. I will go beat and get beaten by a turbo car just as happily as I will Derik's G2 M3 or other fast NA car. I enjoy the challenge, I enjoy getting beaten but seeing the gaps close down event to event, even if by very minor amounts.

G2 people let us unite and enter G5 and that will be that (unless there is some rule somewhere that makes that not possible).

I should have pointed out that the proposed CARS rules changes does create one class, combining the previous Group 2 and 5 with certain vehicle weight restrictions. The link in my first post will take you to the bulletin posted on the CARS website.

---

2015 Subaru WRX
Traded the Audi for the above
Sold the 1993 Honda Civic EG w/B16A Conversion to the Raw Racing boys
6 bicycles because, you know, global warming and all

Quote
AnthonyLatham

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
AnthonyLatham

Quote
Tom B
Doug Shepherd would smoke 90% of the 2wd field in a Geo.

For me this was really the heart of the issue. We needed a class that would help produce more Doug Shepard-like drivers and I believe we now have it in Canada.

HUZHAAA!!!

Tavarich Lathamski you are a Structualist! The structure does not produce above ordinary results. That comes from inside the individual. The structure (organisation) give the person with the drive a tableau on which he can carry out his art.

YES! Even the playing field as much as possible so the talent can shine forth

The thinking that other people by manipulating rules and regulations can "spark" something inside Joe Blow's skull is wrong thinking...

AGREED, if we are talking about Jo Blow the competitor. Let true talent shine forth.

The question you are grappling with is where are the people that want to test themselves and have the drive to stick with the sport long enough to accumulate enough experience to do well...

My belief in as stable a rules set as possible should help in this regard

Obviously, with the shift in who is mainly in the sport to the current mainly desk-bound, white collar , more than average affluence type people, we have seen a shift from emphasis on "doing" to the dominant social model of "consumption".
And the problem of finding MORE people with internal "drive" and "grit" is now far harder....

MORE FUN FOR MORE PEOPLE IS A GOOD IDEA

This is the heart of the question is many areas including schooling of our children..
Very fundamental differences in how different people regard and approach challenges and uncertainty.
And this dichotomy is reflected in "real world" things like the increasingly polarized politics in both my country and yours.

Serious shit.

Yup.

Ah but dorogoy tovarishch there is a shining example of the error... It is not "true Talent" that is our corncern, that is usually taken to be akin to "natural" "talent"...

We are on same page fersure from conversations and you're at work so, OK compositional clarity my be interrupted by all the pressing needs of keeping BMWs purring, BUT!
What we are both trying to say is we should strive to have a framework which displays the DRIVER's--and Co-driver's driving skills, not their board room schmoozing skills or the size of their inheritance.
That displays drive, motivation, determination, persistence, what those pesky guys up North of Leningrad call SISU.

Not bank account or "glitz".

Indeed some social commentators suggest the "natural talent" mind-set is part of the regressive and conservative thinking world-view and we all know how damaging that mind-set is.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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John Reed

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Tom B
One class: 2wd.

This! I don't get the two classes. I will go beat and get beaten by a turbo car just as happily as I will Derik's G2 M3 or other fast NA car. I enjoy the challenge, I enjoy getting beaten but seeing the gaps close down event to event, even if by very minor amounts.

G2 people let us unite and enter G5 and that will be that (unless there is some rule somewhere that makes that not possible).

I concur.

Also, what the hell is peripheral port rotary flat out banned? The power output is no better than the modern engine options these days, but with plenty of negative considerations.

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

While adding weight to a 2800 lb car to make 2900 i9s no big deal, bring a 2200 lb car up to 2900 is a consideration.

Why not add a penalty to the awesome driver who is single handedly destroying the competition aka SCCA race programs? Remember when they added weight to the Audis years ago? Just the winning Audis, not all Audis. If people are so worried that they don't actually want the fdast guy to win then handicap that team or that car. Grow a pair or otherwise quit trying to invent some un-needed formula to fix a problem that only exists in the minds of those who can't win.

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John Reed

Quote
Tom B
One class: 2wd.

This! I don't get the two classes. I will go beat and get beaten by a turbo car just as happily as I will Derik's G2 M3 or other fast NA car. I enjoy the challenge, I enjoy getting beaten but seeing the gaps close down event to event, even if by very minor amounts.

G2 people let us unite and enter G5 and that will be that (unless there is some rule somewhere that makes that not possible).

The best example of this is to compare Derik Nelson's M3 and Dave Hintz's M3. Derik's car is a 1995 with a 3.0 liter engine and is classified in G2. Dave's car is a 1999 with a 3.2 liter and is classified in G5. Both cars had equal power from the factory: 240hp. The later car had about 10 more ft/lbs of torque and was a whopping tenth of a second faster from 0-60mph. So two models, virtually identical in power and performance and the 3.0 liter car is put in the "slower" G2 class because of the way the displacement cutoffs work. To me it's silly to have the same car in two different classes because of a 200cc difference that doesn't make the car any faster.

Now a stock Merkur or Volvo 240 turbo make a good cheap G5 rally car but would get murdered by a really serious G2 car like Scott Fuller's F2 Golf from a few years ago.

So in practice G2, G5, displacement limits, multivalve and turbo factors are all pretty arbitrary. Just make it 2wd. Many paths lead to the same goal.

Ummm so I rarely post, didn't bother to read Tony's link to CARS.

So why the heck am I posting? I dunno?

I have very little real world experience on stages, but DNF'ed a few times (different story). I did manage to set better stage times than some STI's, WRX's, at PFR in a G2 1974 Dodge Colt. How could that be?

We can get caught up in the symantics, weight, restrictors, displacement, etc... What's the dif at the end of the day?

Why shouldn't someone buy an early 1990's Mustang 5.0L 220HP, change the grearing, bigger brakes, suspenders, some welding, cage, etc. and go racing on stages?

2WD is FUN!

Would that Mustang decimate other 2WD cars with that chunk of Americal Iron in the front? Could it put the power down? Etc...?

What's the problem with a 302 being allowed to compete along side a bridge ported 13B or a 2.5L Turbo or a 3.2L NA

You can only put down what you can and what you're able to put down.

Why a limit on displacement?

Safety?

STI vs 1990's Mustang on stages... in similar experience hands... I'm pretty sure that most will agree that the STI will set faster stage times?

So surely I can't be for safety reasons! So why a displacement limit in 2WD.

Sometimes less is better, easier to put down, and set better stage times.

Why micro manage a class that compititors are passionate about not having micro managed?

Morten, I think you got it! Forget hammering the 2WD guys (who universally seem to have the closest camaraderie at least down here) and concentrate on slowing the front of the pack. Go back to stock gear boxes.

those fancy banger-boxes seem to slow them down pretty good when they break ha

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Quote
heymagic
Morten, I think you got it! Forget hammering the 2WD guys (who universally seem to have the closest camaraderie at least down here) and concentrate on slowing the front of the pack. Go back to stock gear boxes.

And pump gas. A lot of insanity---including the need for restrictors---solved.
See Australian series now.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

E85 is still considered pump, no? Which is still rather potent as a fuel option.

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Why mess with open class? There are guys who want to spend to be there, let them! The technology is cool, and the fans love the cars.

Fuel rules, weight rules, it's all fine and good if you want to waste time policing it all. My opinion? The rules now are perfect, just lump 2WD into one and leave it alone. Plenty of room for guys to mess around with their cars, and not much to fuss about.

Open, 2WD, some flavor of open light type class. Seems like it would be plenty.

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John Reed
John Reed Racing
www.johnreedracing.com
johnreedracing@gmail.com

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john vanlandingham

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wvonkessler
As a fat man, I agree with Andrew's observations.

Except he's wrong..
FIA weights is with oil, water.

Re the important things:

Good catch John. I just re-read the FIA rules and you are correct. I was going from memory of being at WRC Mexico where the customer WRC cars in the Ford tent had different sized ballast blocks that correlated the size of the driver and co-driver. eg. Mads had a much larger ballast than Henning.