CARS Class Rule Change Proposal

"Yet change is needed."

Is it?

This is an honest question. Is rally dying? Are we hoping a change in the class system will grow the sport? Why has the current formula worked for so long only to fail us now? No sarcasm or cynicism intended here, I'm relatively new to rally.

It actually is nose heavy. I I recall, it is right at 2800 or so in rally trim, and over 60% of that is on the front wheels. And I would also consider it poorly geared, 4.20 (1), 2.49 (2), 1.66 (3), 1.24 (4), 1.00 (5). I think I built a 4:1 rear diff for it.

Must've removed a lot of weight from the rear then. Stock they're apparently 49.7/50.3. I dunno. You weighed it, you can post the corner weights. I'm just going by what I can find on the interwebbernet.

And those gear ratios look pretty good to me. They're nice and evenly spread, with a 21mph (+/-1mph) difference between every gear at 6500rpm, 'cept 1st->2nd, which has a 18mph gap. That's with the 4.10, and 15" tires. Seems pretty reasonable for a car with 220lb-ft in stock form.

By contrast, mine's something like a 16mph gap between gears, with about 150lb-ft.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Corner weights with the best stock engine available http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/766010-completed-e36-ls1-swap-total-weight-corner-weights.html

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phlat65
It actually is nose heavy. I I recall, it is right at 2800 or so in rally trim, and over 60% of that is on the front wheels. And I would also consider it poorly geared, 4.20 (1), 2.49 (2), 1.66 (3), 1.24 (4), 1.00 (5). I think I built a 4:1 rear diff for it.

Still a damn fun car for being "heavy" and "poorly geared"....and it makes excellent elevens.

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-Tom
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heymagic
Corner weights with the best stock engine available http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/766010-completed-e36-ls1-swap-total-weight-corner-weights.html

Nice!

FWIW: there have been 5 responses in favour of the proposal and one complaining about the 2900lb minimum weight, wanting to run unrestricted at 2700lbs instead. (also a new competitor who's never run a stage before)

Also FWIW: I posed these questions to the committee chair today, in advance of the board meeting on Wednesday:

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In advance of the meeting, I'll ask the questions I've seen posed elsewhere. I think the proposal is solid, but it is probably worth asking the questions.

Why 500 cc steps? It has been said these are a bit too coarse of a step
Why not a lower weight for unrestricted forced induction under 2L (in other words, a 1.6l forced induction car needs to weigh the same as a 2.5l forced induction car)

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Curious, do those numbers include verbal responses? I gave my, positive, feedback directly to John Hall at BDC. One of the things he said was 'we think these weights could need further tweaking, but we feel this is a good start' (or something very close).

-Martin

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MRWmotorsports
Curious, do those numbers include verbal responses? I gave my, positive, feedback directly to John Hall at BDC. One of the things he said was 'we think these weights could need further tweaking, but we feel this is a good start' (or something very close).

-Martin

Probably not.
I'm taking this as feedback directly to the committee chair, not verbal feedback to CARS officials. The general approach of the committe includes a recognition this is a starting point and weights, and possibly the displacement breaks, may need some adjustment as real-world data comes in.

'a good place to start but might need tweaking' pretty much sums up the majority of feedback I've heard personally.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2013 02:10PM by Morison.

are the 5 responses in favor of the proposal current 2wd competitors?

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

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Gravity Fed
are the 5 responses in favor of the proposal current 2wd competitors?

Don't know, but it would only make sense that they were.
(unless you want to feed irrational conspiracy theories. If it were a thin majority in support then I think that becomes relevant.)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison

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MRWmotorsports
Curious, do those numbers include verbal responses? I gave my, positive, feedback directly to John Hall at BDC. One of the things he said was 'we think these weights could need further tweaking, but we feel this is a good start' (or something very close).

-Martin

Probably not.
I'm taking this as feedback directly to the committee chair, not verbal feedback to CARS officials. The general approach of the committe includes a recognition this is a starting point and weights, and possibly the displacement breaks, may need some adjustment as real-world data comes in.

'a good place to start but might need tweaking' pretty much sums up the majority of feedback I've heard personally.

"The Committee Chair"....pffft la dee dah...
why don't you speak like a human being instead of a pompous bureaucrat?
Does the Comittee Chair have a name? Is it the same Darryl who obviously understands nothing and who chaired the 3 year fiasco?
Lesson time on how normal humans who intend to speak in order to share useful information and encourage dialog speak.
A normal human trying to encourage dialog would say "I'm taking this as feedback directly to Enrique Finkelbaum, the Committe chair......."
Then we know

It seems reflexive for you to puff up the importance or maybe to mask who is who...which is understandable considering the huge massive blunder that has been made of just this one simple subject, but in no way encourages trust or dialog.

And as for "adjustments as "real world data" comes in..

That hasn't had an effect yet, why should it now..
There's 10+ years of data of Gp5 and Group 2 as classes.... How much more info is needed to see there is no pressing need for any changes or at most just lumping the 2 classes into one big class?

And why do you always ALWAYS play the keyboard slime-ball and couch your words for max negative effect and most calculated to dimiss comments in this pearl from above:

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and one complaining about the 2900lb minimum weight, wanting to run unrestricted at 2700lbs instead. (also a new competitor who's never run a stage before)

Is that one and the same person?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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john vanlandingham
"The Committee Chair"....pffft la dee dah...
why don't you speak like a human being instead of a pompous bureaucrat?

It's about clarity of communication.
Had I said '...feedback directly to Martin, then people would be left axing 'who's martin.' or possibly, do you mean Chris Martin, who was on the committee? Saying 'the committee chair, Martin Burnley, reads as doubly pompous in my books.

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john vanlandingham
Does the Comittee Chair have a name?

Sure does.
Martin Burnley, chaired this committee.

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john vanlandingham
Is it the same Darryl who obviously understands nothing and who chaired the 3 year fiasco?

If you want to talk about knowing nothing... look no further!
Jorge Dascollas chaired the 3 year class structure review committee. I don't think Darryl was even on that committee and only got involved once the recommendations came to the board.
Further, saying Darryl 'understands nothing' only perpetuates an inaccurate assessment that you like to spread just to buoy your position. (tsk tsk)

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john vanlandingham
It seems reflexive for you to puff up the importance or maybe to mask who is who...which is understandable considering the huge massive blunder that has been made of just this one simple subject, but in no way encourages trust or dialog.

Nah. It's just reflexive for you to assume the worst of everything that doesn't originate with you. Had I used the position and name you'd have accused me of name dropping.

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john vanlandingham
And why do you always ALWAYS play the keyboard slime-ball and couch your words for max negative effect and most calculated to dimiss comments in this pearl from above:

You read WAY too much into what I write.
It is a simple declaration that the one negative comment received was one that simply said they didn't like the idea of running their car at 2900 lbs, and wanted to run unrestricted forced induction at 2700 lbs. An yes, it was from the same person, someone who has yet to run a single stage. (and no, I don't know who)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2013 07:24PM by Morison.

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Morison

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Gravity Fed
are the 5 responses in favor of the proposal current 2wd competitors?

Don't know, but it would only make sense that they were.
(unless you want to feed irrational conspiracy theories. If it were a thin majority in support then I think that becomes relevant.)

i only ask because its common for people to hold an opinion on something that might not directly affect them at meetings. Seen it before organizing rallies, so was just curious.

i still say the rotary bans and what not are overzealous (says the only rotary guy). my concern being it might set precedence for other situations. Maybe ill draft something and send it forward, but not being a CARS member i doubt it will matter much.

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2013 08:55PM by Gravity Fed.

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john vanlandingham
Lesson time on how normal humans who intend to speak in order to share useful information and encourage dialog speak.

You owe me a new keyboard.