Canadian P2WD Rules Questions

My focus has shifted from rally cross to regional rallying, it's been a while since I went through the CARS Rally rule book and it seems a lot has changed. The class that now interests me is Production 2WD and I wanted to clarify a few things.

Here are some direct quotes from the rulebook:

"None of the normal elements of the interior cockpit bodywork (including the dashboard and
the elements contained in or part of the dashboard) and none of the accessories normally
mounted by the manufacturer on the lowest price model may be removed or replaced."

I've seperated the two parts of that point in color for ease of understanding.

Is a sunroof considered a normal element of the interior cockpit bodywork and/or an accessory? I want to know if the above quotation allows me to remove a sunroof or not.

This leads me to my next question. Can I just use a "lower priced model" of the same chassis that doesn't have the sunroof but use the engine+drive train from the other model (ie: Civic CX vs Civic Si).

I'm not worried about any other parts of the car as they are all free (brakes, suspension, diff, flywheel, clutch, ecu, etc.)

This rule states I can't use parts or components from other model variants (I'm assuming their referring to trims such as CX, DX, Si, etc):

"Use of original equipment parts or components from other model variants and/or model
years is not permitted."

This rule does not specify trims or variants:

"The transmission installed must be OEM for the model and year of manufacture of the
vehicle."

This is the rule book definition for "model":

"A model is a basic manufacturer's designation (e.g.: Subaru Impreza, Volkswagen Golf, Ford Focus,
Mitsubishi Lancer, etc...)"

Summary of my inquiry:
-Can I remove the sunroof?
-Can I use a lower trim model + engine and drivetrain from higher trim model since the chassis are IDENTICAL and any parts which differ from the trims are irrelevant because they are all FREE for the class?

What do you guys think?

---

Carthik S
1999 Honda Civic 2DR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2013 11:21AM by Carthik.

Quote
Carthik
Summary of my inquiry:
-Can I remove the sunroof?
-Can I use a lower trim model + engine and drivetrain from higher trim model since the chassis are IDENTICAL and any parts which differ from the trims are irrelevant because they are all FREE for the class?
What do you guys think?

I think you're asking in the wrong place:
Ask your regional scrutineer and/or the CARS technical director (technical@CARSRALLY.ca)

Asking here you're going to just get a big long rant about how stupid and restrictive the old SCCA/RA production rules were, even though the CARS Prod2wd rules aren't like that any more.

However:

Quote

12.3.17 Roofs.
Movable metal sunroofs and/or roof panels must be fixed in the closed position. Sunroofs and/or roof panels of any other material must be replaced with metal and must be fixed in the closed position. The finished work must be of equal or greater strength than the permanent roof.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

So I actually MUST replace the glass sunroof with metal. Thanks for clearing up one of my questions Morison.

I thought someone here would simply know the answer from experience to the chassis interchangeability question before I email CARS.

I'll eventually fire off an email to CARS.

---

Carthik S
1999 Honda Civic 2DR

As to using a lower trim model - that wouldn't be allowed under the current Prod 2wd rules (but would under the Prod 4wd rules.) Remember that this is a new, and evolving, rule set and you could petition for a change. (suggesting allowing different shells within a generation as an example)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

You're seeing why most, nearly 99% choose not to voluntarily make piles of meaningless problems for themselves and scrutineers and just ignore Pee and build Gp2.

Just build to Gp2..
It simple, easy, cheaper MORE FUNNER-ER

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

This is not your grandfather's pee.
(nor is it apple juice)

Take everything you think you know about the limitations of Production class and throw them out. Fundamentally, the limitation is now just that the driveline needs to be stock, the rest of the car is open to a lot of work and the thought was that this could easily be a 'stepping stone' class where the car could be built up into an 'open 2wd' car easily. (One of the main reasons for allowing weight reduction was so that the shell could be moved to open 2wd without some metal being 'trapped' by the cage installation)

Yes, stock drivelines suffer in terms of gearing and grunt but they are near indestructible and can help you get massive amounts of seat-time.
I know of a Subaru STi that has over 25 events on the original motor. I did close to 30 events on an engine in a WRX, and that engine is still going strong even if the shell is long since dead.

Open class engines are getting down to one-event wonders (or less.) I don't know how many times I've seen cars with lots of engine work sitting on the side of the road because of some small problem that is associated with the build.

Building a Production 2wd car allows you to buy a car, strip it and put safety gear and suspension into it, and take it rallying. I have yet to see anyone get to the end of a stage, particularly their first stage, without some sort of grin on their face.

Once you've got your feet wet, or maybe once you've worn out the stock driveine, then make the change to Open 2wd. It's simple, addresses the need for sooner gratification and stops the trend of people giving up on the sport because they loose their enthuisasm in a multi-year build that gets sold, unfinished, for pennies on the dollar.

Sure, you 'can' build a Gr2 car for less than a P car, but you'll need to spend a LOT more to build it to the limit of the rules. There's also nothing saying that Gr2 car will be any more reliable - in fact I'd say it would be almost certainly less reliable - nor that any given driver will be ANY faster in a Gr2 car vs. a P2wd car. (since few people are getting the most out of their cars anyway)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
Sure, you 'can' build a Gr2 car for less than a P car, but you'll need to spend a LOT more to build it to the limit of the rules.

This is exactly what I'm thinking. Building a Group2 car is cheap, building a competitive Group2 is a whole other story.

The second I start thinking about the open motor rules in Group2 I get intimidated by larger budgets. I'm assuming VW Golfs dominate Group2, what kind of power are they making, what are they weighing in at?

Would 160BHP @ ~2600 lbs be competitive in Production 2WD? What's the current competition in that class?

I understand the "stepping stone" mindset behind the new P2 rules, but they do not apply in my situation (and I'm sure in many others'). I'm forced to stick to a heavier coupe premium chassis trim to keep my good engine+drivetrain combination I have in my rallycross car for P2. If I were to move to G2, it would be benificial to have a lighter hatchback base trim chassis. Waste of a cage, and all that time and work put into the P2 car.

I think P2 should allow interchangeability of STOCK motors and drivetrains between the same chassis models trims. If it's allowed in PAWD, why not in P2? What was the reasoning behind that?

---

Carthik S
1999 Honda Civic 2DR



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2013 01:25PM by Carthik.

Quote
Carthik
If I were to move to G2, it would be beneficial to have a lighter hatchback base trim chassis. Waste of a cage, and all that time and work put into the P2 car.

But, what makes the coupe heavier than the hatchback. (are the bare shells heavier or is the listed curb weights heavier because of the equipment that's coming out anyway.) My guess is that with some focused effort, you should be able to get the coupe down to the hatch weight... but I wouldn't take a strong position on that.

Quote
Carthik
I think P2 should allow interchangeability of STOCK motors and drivetrains between the same chassis models trims. If it's allowed in PAWD, why not in P2? What was the reasoning behind that?

The thought process was that if you allowed driveline swaps between models, then the default build would always include buying the best chassis and the best engine and bringing them together. This was always intended to be be a 'starter' class where you grabbed a shell, did the basic prep, and went rallying.

I agree that this might be getting in the way and that a rule change proposal might be worth sending in. That said, I'm not of a strong enough opinion on the rule to do that myself.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
But, what makes the coupe heavier than the hatchback. (are the bare shells heavier or is the listed curb weights heavier because of the equipment that's coming out anyway.) My guess is that with some focused effort, you should be able to get the coupe down to the hatch weight... but I wouldn't take a strong position on that.

Actually once the sunroof is out of the equation there is barely a difference in weight. But weight placement is obviously still a factor and definitely a disadvantage as the coupe's weight would hang further out of the rear suspension. The hatch is a better chassis for competition.

Even if allowed in P2 with a petition of the rules it would be disadvantageous to run my EK (96-00) chassis in G2 as the G2 rules allow for any generation of chassis be combined with any generation of motor. In that case I would run the lighter EG (92-95) chassis which also has other benefits.

I know now I'm just ranting, but I don't think this "stepping stone" class works in the real world. I assume G2 is very competitive, it just doesn't make sense. Your once P2 car may be legal for G2, but will it be competitive?

Quote
Morison
The thought process was that if you allowed driveline swaps between models, then the default build would always include buying the best chassis and the best engine and bringing them together. This was always intended to be be a 'starter' class where you grabbed a shell, did the basic prep, and went rallying.

I agree that this might be getting in the way and that a rule change proposal might be worth sending in. That said, I'm not of a strong enough opinion on the rule to do that myself.

An example of why I don't like this ruling and how it get's in the way. I consider the Integra Type-R to be a competitive car at 200hp and about 2600 lbs stock. Problem is, according to P2 rules I would need to go out and find a genuine rare and expensive Type-R chassis to use it's stock engine and drive train. I don't have the budget to do this, let's say someone comes along and does have deeper pockets. They would have a distinct advantage as they are allowed to run a much more powerful engine because they can afford the expensive chassis.

If chassis/motor interchangeability was permitted within the same models, it would level the playing field in P2. In theory, I can go out and buy a $200 Integra chassis, throw in a Type-R engine and drive train and be just as competitive as the other hypothetical car. Yes the Type-R has many differences in it's chassis at it's advantage, but they aren't anything major that the open rulings of P2 can't make up for with a base Integra chassis.

The P2 ruling doesn't make the class affordable for "starters", it just makes it very expensive to be competitve. The most affordable starter class is actually G2 as they can choose to keep their motors+drive trains stock if they don't want to be competitive and just wanted to go rallying.

I think the major issue with the class is that CARS tried to make it BOTH a stepping stone class and an affordable entry level class. By allowing chassis/motor interchangeability between the same models it could increase the costs of the class slightly, but then the class can TRULY be a stepping stone to G2.

I hate politics, how does one get this "petition" thing going with CARS?

---

Carthik S
1999 Honda Civic 2DR



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2013 02:25PM by Carthik.

You do not have to build to the limit of the rules. Suggesting that shows you and whoever you get ideas from exist in a abstract theoretical fantasy land and that you know nothing of value about competition or reality.
But then I guess I am re-stating the obvious there.

You build what is necessary to keep you happy.

Try as I might and I've been trying for 28 years, I cannot get people to reflexively think rationally about the "whole package' and the value of building well. Virtually everybody builds half assed half done half undone cars and some are happy and some drop out....

NOBODY routinely builds Gp2 or 5 cars to anything more than slightly warmed over road cars....

And just a reminder: Ozzie Fiesta-man showed what a well built coordinated car is and goes like when driven well.

Nobody has been anywhere near that for a LONG time.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Carthik

Quote
Morison
But, what makes the coupe heavier than the hatchback. (are the bare shells heavier or is the listed curb weights heavier because of the equipment that's coming out anyway.) My guess is that with some focused effort, you should be able to get the coupe down to the hatch weight... but I wouldn't take a strong position on that.

Actually once the sunroof is out of the equation there is barely a difference in weight. But weight placement is obviously still a factor and definitely a disadvantage as the coupe's weight would hang further out of the rear suspension. The hatch is a better chassis for competition.

Even if allowed in P2 with a petition of the rules it would be disadvantageous to run my EK (96-00) chassis in G2 as the G2 rules allow for any generation of chassis be combined with any generation of motor. In that case I would run the lighter EG (92-95) chassis which also has other benefits.

I know now I'm just ranting, but I don't think this "stepping stone" class works in the real world. I assume G2 is very competitive, it just doesn't make sense. Your once P2 car may be legal for G2, but will it be competitive?

Quote
Morison
The thought process was that if you allowed driveline swaps between models, then the default build would always include buying the best chassis and the best engine and bringing them together. This was always intended to be be a 'starter' class where you grabbed a shell, did the basic prep, and went rallying.

I agree that this might be getting in the way and that a rule change proposal might be worth sending in. That said, I'm not of a strong enough opinion on the rule to do that myself.

An example of why I don't like this ruling and how it get's in the way. I consider the Integra Type-R to be a competitive car at 200hp and about 2600 lbs stock. Problem is, according to P2 rules I would need to go out and find a genuine rare and expensive Type-R chassis to use it's stock engine and drive train. I don't have the budget to do this, let's say someone comes along and does have deeper pockets. They would have a distinct advantage as they are allowed to run a much more powerful engine because they can afford the expensive chassis.

If chassis/motor interchangeability was permitted within the same models, it would level the playing field in P2. In theory, I can go out and buy a $200 Integra chassis, throw in a Type-R engine and drive train and be just as competitive as the other hypothetical car. Yes the Type-R has many differences in it's chassis at it's advantage, but they aren't anything major that the open rulings of P2 can't make up for with a base Integra chassis.

The P2 ruling doesn't make the class affordable for "starters", it just makes it very expensive to be competitve. The most affordable starter class is actually G2 as they can choose to keep their motors+drive trains stock if they don't want to be competitive and just wanted to go rallying.

I think the major issue with the class is that CARS tried to make it BOTH a stepping stone class and an affordable entry level class. By allowing chassis/motor interchangeability between the same models it could increase the costs of the class slightly, but then the class can TRULY be a stepping stone to G2.

So. It seems you don't really want to build a P car. you want to easily swap whole motors and stuff around.

Good god then why try and change the class, change the sticker on the door, its a lot easier.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2013 06:23PM by john vanlandingham.

I do want to build a P car as I don't want to get into expensive engine+drive-train work.

I'm just saying based on Morison's explanation of P2 class, it doesn't make sense to me.

/thread.

---

Carthik S
1999 Honda Civic 2DR

Quote
Carthik
An example of why I don't like this ruling and how it get's in the way. I consider the Integra Type-R to be a competitive car at 200hp and about 2600 lbs stock. Problem is, according to P2 rules I would need to go out and find a genuine rare and expensive Type-R chassis to use it's stock engine and drive train. I don't have the budget to do this, let's say someone comes along and does have deeper pockets. They would have a distinct advantage as they are allowed to run a much more powerful engine because they can afford the expensive chassis.

Someone will always have deeper pockets - that's not a reason to suggest a rule change. If you perceive the extra HP of a TypeR to be enough of an advantage, save up and go get one. This happens all the time in auto-x, one car rises to the top of each class and its "the car to have."

Quote
Carthik
If chassis/motor interchangeability was permitted within the same models, it would level the playing field in P2. In theory, I can go out and buy a $200 Integra chassis, throw in a Type-R engine and drive train and be just as competitive as the other hypothetical car. Yes the Type-R has many differences in it's chassis at it's advantage, but they aren't anything major that the open rulings of P2 can't make up for with a base Integra chassis.

It doesn't level the playing field, it just means everyone now needs a motor swap in a "Production" class to be competitive and IMO, that's truly defeating the purpose of a production class.

Quote
Carthik
The P2 ruling doesn't make the class affordable for "starters", it just makes it very expensive to be competitve. The most affordable starter class is actually G2 as they can choose to keep their motors+drive trains stock if they don't want to be competitive and just wanted to go rallying.

The problem is you're now trying to justify building the perfect production car. Run what you got in Group 2 and compare yourself to a larger field. If they beat you, drive faster next time and don't worry about their equipment and/or upgrade your car as you can. Of course if you beat people with better cars...enjoy that too!

Dave

Quote
Carthik
The most affordable starter class is actually G2 as they can choose to keep their motors+drive trains stock if they don't want to be competitive and just wanted to go rallying.

Being competitive or not - on North America at least - has a lot more to do with the driver than the car anyway. As Many have said, you don't need big power to be competitive.

Quote
Carthik
I hate politics, how does one get this "petition" thing going with CARS?

Ideally, you would get a handful of other people either in P2wd or wanting to be in P2wd and each would write to the tech. director suggesting a rule change to allow the used of alternate, stock, drive lines. Bring solid, generalized, reasoning (nothing will kill an argument faster than 'my car would benefit) and point to the inequity between P2 and P4 rules in that area.
It is also worth talking to the competitor's rep on the extended board before going to far with this. You'd want to have him on side as well.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
Being competitive or not - on North America at least - has a lot more to do with the driver than the car anyway. As Many have said, you don't need big power to be competitive.

I completely agree and realized this after my first rally cross event in my barely prepped car. I was intimidated with the trailers, cages, and race cars but managed fastest stage time in my class and faster stage times than most AWD and some AWD turbos. Hence why I want to move into regional/national rallying.

I've decided I'm going to convert my rally cross car into a P2 car. Not going to bother with all this petition stuff. Please see my new thread in this forum.

Thanks for all the input,

Carthik

---

Carthik S
1999 Honda Civic 2DR



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2013 02:48PM by Carthik.