Canadian P2WD Rules Questions

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Carthik
I do want to build a P car as I don't want to get into expensive engine+drive-train work.

I'm just saying based on Morison's explanation of P2 class, it doesn't make sense to me.

/thread.

Very little of what he says makes sense. Especially so with the thing indispensable to rallying cars: CARs.
And the "Tech guy" is equally stuck in some theoretical/abstract/what if fantasy land.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Very little of what he says makes sense. Especially so with the thing indispensable to rallying cars: CARs.
And the "Tech guy" is equally stuck in some theoretical/abstract/what if fantasy land.

Always the need to insult.
FWIW: I was parroting the thought behind the P2 class based on the discussion of the board. Don't mistake that for my own thoughts.
On the other hand, at least I recognise rules have to be built around what is possible at the pointy end, not what is commonly done.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison

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john vanlandingham
Very little of what he says makes sense. Especially so with the thing indispensable to rallying cars: CARs.
And the "Tech guy" is equally stuck in some theoretical/abstract/what if fantasy land.

Always the need to insult.
FWIW: I was parroting the thought behind the P2 class based on the discussion of the board. Don't mistake that for my own thoughts.
On the other hand, at least I recognise rules have to be built around what is possible at the pointy end, not what is commonly done.

Wow, you're so clever! I never ever looked in any rule book....

Fortunately, rather than being some rules geekoid, I raced for 30 years and I know the difference--and pointlessness of advising people starting out to worry about building a top of the class spec tool--cause that's what the car is in this context: a tool.

So when there's a new guy talking about building a car, even though he says he wants to build a P car---to avoid getting in some HP and money war in Gp2-----I advise his to forget about P class.....and then inform him that almost nobody is really building particularly hot motors or proper boxes/final drives to go with the not particularly hot motors they aren't building...

And regardless of the bullshit rules, I point him in the direction of REAL WORLD results and then trust that he can put together 2+2....as i suggested he look how Oztralian "Bruce" Reeves spanked every turbo 4wd except the few absurd budget cars with a little 1.6 powered car--that was thoroughly done..

he ought to be able to figure out that if a 170hp car with a nice box and brakes can beat nearly everybody---he doesn't need to fret about 200hp.
He needs whatever it is to work together hp/torque and correct gearset and correct final drive---and some brakes and suspension...

And a few thousand hours on loose surfaces (and in that he's lucky being where he is cause he can play on snow...and that's a marvelous substitute for high speed gravel)

If you weren't a guy who always trips over "commas and crossed Ts" and nearly NEVER can see any "bigger picture" or longer view, you would have tried your damnedest to deflected his concerns for whatever dumb version of P you guys have hacked together---and hammered away at the inarguable veracity of the folly of voluntarily choosing to saddle himself with unnecessary hurdles. when starting out..

P is for guys with some backdoor deal with a distributor or MFGer who is subsidising EVERYTHING so their ad dept can try and make some stupefyingly boring "FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE" schmaltz that nobody ever reads. It is for guys who are basically--if they do it seriously who are liars and or whores since they all ALL have ALWAYS cheated so constantly--brazenly--even admitting, no, CROWING about how "we all always did that".

But you didn't.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Sigh, more uninformed drivel from the asylum.

Stick to talking about things you actually know about - which is a LOT of things and please PLEASE stop mindlessly insulting people just to somehow bolster your own position. Further, accept there are different ways of looking at the world and that while you might sincerely think your way is the best, that others are free to see it differently.

Understand that I'm not saying you're wrong about Gr2 being a good place to start. I'm just saying Prod 2wd isn't necessarily a bad place. If you want to really talk big picture, there has to be room for both.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2013 09:03PM by Morison.

Man all this class warfare is making nervous. And here I picked open lights so I can wear my wig and pretend to be Michele Mouton in my AWD Audi! I didn't realize there was so much stress and deep thinking/plotting involved with in the different classes. Do any rally guys, NOT give a shit about standings and just want to play in the dirt or am I the odd man out? Which is fine, I'm still going to wear the wig and speak in a French accent though....

Quote
Morison
Sigh, more uninformed drivel from the asylum.

Stick to talking about things you actually know about - which is a LOT of things and please PLEASE stop mindlessly insulting people just to somehow bolster your own position. Further, accept there are different ways of looking at the world and that while you might sincerely think your way is the best, that others are free to see it differently.

Understand that I'm not saying you're wrong about Gr2 being a good place to start. I'm just saying Prod 2wd isn't necessarily a bad place. If you want to really talk big picture, there has to be room for both.

I am talking about things I know. 40 something years of watching people tentitive , then enthusiastically diving into motorsport, and the machinations and waste and tinkering of the really rather simple form of racing and how the peripheral people, the "organisers' then "Czars" and Benevolent Dictators" fuck things up...

Nobody goes to a race "to watch the organsiers flawless execution".
They go to drive or to watch and cheer/jeer on the people racing.

Keith, if people really wanted to actually drive PRODUCTION CARS, then they would not have been cheating and lobbying and wink winking at their buddy scrutineer, and National Stewards and protestsing while they themselves have broken countless rules..

I could hit you over the head with an illegal Subie ring and pinion and I doubt you could say why its illegal...you are an ________ sort--or whatever, not a racer, but if you defend P at all, then you haven't a clue---if you are honest...and I doubt that. ( I believe you argue things you know are indefensible knowing they are indefensible but do it to "go along" with "the in crowd", to "fit in". And that's being very generous)

Mike Hurst actually emailed me one time about a PGT inquiry* and I asked how PGT was going and he said "I don't know why all these people enter PGT when EVERY ONE OF THEM is trying to cheat in so many areas that we'd have to DQ every one of them at every event"



*I actually prodded thru a RA rule change! Shock! Horror! Had to do with the cheesoid 1 ply thing rubber connecting hose on the hard plastic intake piping that goes under the intake manifold on those horrid Blue Thangs--which would tear at the slightest provocation--like a ordinary removal to check the ID of the restrictor...
I said "What are you going to do if a guy has towed 2000 miles, paid for everything and then when you loosen the hose and pull the assembly back and snake the checking tool in---and you tear the 1 ply hose---what are you going to do to make that right for the poor bastid who has a torn hose now---which will allow POUNDS of dirt to pour in? Suggest 2 alternate solutions: a) allow the mooks to razor blade off the one ply thing and use a simple section of 2-3 ply hose or b) allow replacement of the rubber/plastic/rubber POS junk with one piece rubber hose----making the absolute "should be done" job of check restrictors easier and safer for scrutineers.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
I am talking about things I know. 40 something years of watching people tentitive , then enthusiastically diving into motorsport, and the machinations and waste and tinkering of the really rather simple form of racing and how the peripheral people, the "organisers' then "Czars" and Benevolent Dictators" fuck things up...

Your contempt for organizers and sanctioning bodies is telling of how narrowly you see the sport.

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john vanlandingham
Nobody goes to a race "to watch the organsiers flawless execution".

No, but they sure as hell complain when things don't go smoothly.

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john vanlandingham
Keith, if people really wanted to actually drive PRODUCTION CARS, then they would not have been cheating and lobbying and wink winking at their buddy scrutineer, and National Stewards and protestsing while they themselves have broken countless rules..

Agreed, so rule need to be enforceable, which led to a lot of the 'production' rules being relaxed. (ECU reflashes etc)

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john vanlandingham
I could hit you over the head with an illegal Subie ring and pinion and I doubt you could say why its illegal...

I'm guessing you're talking about changing the ratio on half of the drive line so the car turns in better. (effectively dragging the ass around a bit, at least that's how I understood it.) I think - its a bit foggy - it was actually a combination of rear r+p and the drop gear in the box wasn't it? Or was it by not doing the drop gear you got the desired cheat? The other common one was using different stub axles to be able to use a different, cheaper, LSD.
But, you're still focussing on the things that have largely gone away with the new rules for P4wd in Canada.

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john vanlandingham
you are an ________ sort--or whatever, not a racer...

I'll happily admit I'm not a builder, but I am a racer.

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john vanlandingham
I believe you argue things you know are indefensible knowing they are indefensible but do it to "go along" with "the in crowd", to "fit in". And that's being very generous)

Oh so wrong.
I've been pretty clear that I'll often share some of the thoughts and discussion that led to decisions at the board level so that people understand the decisions being made. That shouldn't ever be confused with me always agreeing with every last one of them on a personal level.
If you know anything about the principles of governance, you'd know that once a board has made a decision, all of the members of that board must, by law, support and defend it publicly. (Except in extreme cases where laws are being broken etc.)

If you knew anything about me - at all - you'd know how absurd the idea of me wanting to 'fit in with the in crowd' is.

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john vanlandingham
Mike Hurst actually emailed me one time...

Look who's trying to be in the 'in crowd' now... :-)

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john vanlandingham
about a PGT inquiry* and I asked how PGT was going and he said "I don't know why all these people enter PGT when EVERY ONE OF THEM is trying to cheat in so many areas that we'd have to DQ every one of them at every event"

Was that before or after they started doing regular post-event checks. I know we got checked for rear door structure and window regulators, gear ratios, and something else over the years. Passed every time and were never worried about what they'd check.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.