Sad to hear about a loss of life in the sport we all love. The only solace is it was two people doing what they likely enjoyed more than a lot of other things. For myself I could think of a lot worse ways to go.

As for the rest of the thread, seriously??

---

John Reed
John Reed Racing
www.johnreedracing.com
johnreedracing@gmail.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2013 02:44PM by John Reed.

My condolences to the families of the Driver and Co-Driver. I am sorry for your loss.

---

Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2013 05:09PM by Creech.

Quote
john vanlandingham
You stupid cunt Moronson.

Again, you can't have a discussion without resorting to name calling. You have anger issues, John, you really should seek professional help. (Just in case you think it isn't, I am being sincere about this.)

Quote
john vanlandingham
AS IF IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE YOU MORON IF THE DRIVER KILLED A PHOTOGRAPHER OR A CO-DRIVER OR A "ORINARY" SPECTATOR.

Dead is dead, but there is a difference in assumed risk. Co-drivers and to a lesser extent photographers are allowed to be in higher risk locations and accept somewhat more responsibility for their own safety. Spectators being killed is usually at least partially due to an organiser/marshal mistake as well.

Quote
john vanlandingham
EXHIBITION, so the asshole who is just driving for fun that he loses control and kills himself, well meh, he won't do that again.
But a fool that misses the point of having fun in his old car and in so losing control kills innocent people--that asshole is not going to get pity or sympathy.

Accidents happen, we all know that. What we don't know now is what lead up to this accident. I've heard third hand (a friend of a friend was there) that the car hit one of the hinklesteins lining the road - designed to keep tanks from straying off the road.
Regardless, it was an accident and you have to feel for the families of those involved.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Save your poor imitation "I am outraged! oooooooOOO sniffle snifle" pretend outrage for the idiots who think you mean what you say.

I generally do mean what I say... not sure why you think I don't.
I also don't know where you see me saying "I'm outraged." Far from it. I'm ashamed of your behaviour in this thread, as you should be, but that is different from outrage.

Quote
john vanlandingham
You cannot even consider simple thought exercises, and if you cannot foisrst consider that then any subsequent blabbering is pointless.

You have no idea what I can or can't consider. You continually say I can't consider simple thought exercises with absolutely no framework to say that. You regularly prove you know nothing about me, yet you continue to say things like that ONLY as a way to position yourself.
The funny thing is that what you hate about me the most - it seems - is that I don't blindly accept much of what anyone says and am quick to ask questions and look for more information and discussion.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Fractured vertebrae a lesser injury you liken to banging your elbow.

If I didn't make it clear enough for you, I'll say it again. The analogy to banging your elbow was purposely an extreme exaggeration to make a point.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Fucking just shut up Morison, you are truly an idiot.
Go fracture your vertebra bending your spine to pull your head out of your ass.

Seriously, go talk to someone. Your need to find offense in everything anyone says combined with the regularity you respond with unfettered aggressiveness and anger are signs of a problem.
It's often said that personality quirks cross over to become mental health issues once they start impacting work and/or home life. It's one of the first measures of the need for treatment/medication.
Being self employed it can be difficult to assess when things are impacting your work environment. Accept it or not, your attitude on this forum is impacting your business. There are people who have decided they don't want to do business with you, even if your suspension might be a good option to consider.
You may be convinced you don't have a problem. If you're right, a visit to a mental health professional can't hurt. If you're wrong, it can help not only you, but those around you. If you are already consulting with a mental health professional, be more open and honest with them... you don't seem to be getting the help you need.

If you think I'm trolling, attacking or just being an ass about this - you're wrong. I assure you, I'm not the only person thinking this.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Firstly, RIP to the dudes that have passed.

Secondly, Morison, give yourself a reality shake and bear in mind it takes two to tango in all this ongoing precipitate that is dragging the forum down.
And looking at the latter part of your above post questioning somone's mental wellbeing on an open web forum without thinking it will cause offense is grossly off the mark. If you were truly compassionate and concerned about an individual's welfare you would man up, pick up the phone and call them to at least communicate your concerns in private instead of openly perpetuating this crap in full public view.

Quote
Morison
Seriously, go talk to someone. Your need to find offense in everything anyone says combined with the regularity you respond with unfettered aggressiveness and anger are signs of a problem.
It's often said that personality quirks cross over to become mental health issues once they start impacting work and/or home life. It's one of the first measures of the need for treatment/medication.

But as you opened the box I'll add that I really don't need to change that many words for that quote to fit your own modus operandi on here with the way you continually quote and multi dissect a certain individual's posts, and hyper bold your replies in a remarkably similar fashion to the very one you infer has issues....

On balance you need to see that in between the rants you guys involve yourselves in that some still manage to add knowledge and share helpful input to others within the rally community.
So take the time to moderate yourselves and consider that if you only add bickering and negativity to any situation then maybe it is best to quietly leave and find somewhere else that better suits your needs and not feck it up for others.

---

Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

Quote
danster
Secondly, Morison, give yourself a reality shake and bear in mind it takes two to tango in all this ongoing precipitate that is dragging the forum down.

Understood and agreed. The unfortunate part is John seems to want to dance with everyone these days. I recognize this would be a better place if I let him spew without fulfilling my need to respond... and I'm working on it. This place would be even better if he didn't spew in the first place.

Quote
danster
If you were truly compassionate and concerned about an individual's welfare you would man up, pick up the phone and call them to at least communicate your concerns in private instead of openly perpetuating this crap in full public view.

If he were someone I considered a friend I may have gone privately first, but I chose the route I did. It may have been a mistake, but it was a judgement call. The behavior was certainly public enough and mental health shouldn't be something that needs to be swept under the rug.

Quote
danster
But as you opened the box I'll add that I really don't need to change that many words for that quote to fit your own modus operandi on here with the way you continually quote and multi dissect a certain individual's posts, and hyper bold your replies in a remarkably similar fashion to the very one you infer has issues...

That's one of the ironies that isn't lost on me. It is also one of the reasons I'll often walk away without posting and one of the reasons I have occasionally apologized for posting something inappropriate in haste.

Quote
danster
So take the time to moderate yourselves and consider that if you only add bickering and negativity to any situation then maybe it is best to quietly leave and find somewhere else that better suits your needs and not feck it up for others.

Agreed. I am certainly more than willing to put aside bickering and negativity. Do you also see that as avoiding questioning assertions and trying to further discussions?
I've adopted a new rule where if my typing wakes anyone else in the house, including the light-sleeping cat, I won't submit the post until the next day.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Doivi Clarkinen

Quote
SeanP
Looking at this photo, I just don't get what caused the impact and damage. The little TR7 got some air over the crest/jump, but they didn't go that far in the air. I am assuming those white staggered signs in the foreground are the distance markers that the WRC cars were measure against. Did the TR7 bottom out and crush the spines of both driver and co-driver upon landing?



image link fail. see this:
http://500px.com/photo/44127638?from=set/824588

Look at this photo:

http://500px.com/photo/44127636?from=set/824588

Look how the dashboard is folded up, the left side looks smashed in. They impacted something on the driver side hard. What is that white thing to the left side of the rear of the car? Did they hit that?

I would have to guess, just a guess like everyone else, that being a panzerplatte stage, They found a Hinklestein. There are no trees around. Their car is already smashed in the first pic. Those Hinklestein are EVIL, no one should ever, ever sanction a stage with them around. Petter Solberg's run in with them is some of the scariest incar you'll see, in a top spec car. No way a amateur historic could fair any better.

Sideway + solid object = dead racers. RIP Lovell/Freeman.

Oh and that Marshall is super useful....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2013 12:26PM by bknblk2.

Quote
bknblk2

Quote
Doivi Clarkinen

Quote
SeanP
Looking at this photo, I just don't get what caused the impact and damage. The little TR7 got some air over the crest/jump, but they didn't go that far in the air. I am assuming those white staggered signs in the foreground are the distance markers that the WRC cars were measure against. Did the TR7 bottom out and crush the spines of both driver and co-driver upon landing?



image link fail. see this:
http://500px.com/photo/44127638?from=set/824588

Look at this photo:

http://500px.com/photo/44127636?from=set/824588

Look how the dashboard is folded up, the left side looks smashed in. They impacted something on the driver side hard. What is that white thing to the left side of the rear of the car? Did they hit that?

I would have to guess, just a guess like everyone else, that being a panzerplatte stage, They found a Hinklestein. There are no trees around. Their car is already smashed in the first pic. Those Hinklestein are EVIL, no one should ever, ever sanction a stage with them around. Petter Solberg's run in with them is some of the scariest incar you'll see, in a top spec car. No way a amateur historic could fair any better.

Sideway + solid object = dead racers. RIP Lovell/Freeman.

Oh and that Marshall is super useful....

The written reports say trees, but I think Hinklestein as well. I saw photos of the impact side of the car and it looks like the impact was between the A and B pillars down low.

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

Quote
bknblk2
Petter Solberg's run in with them is some of the scariest incar you'll see, in a top spec car.

Agreed.

This was a very sad loss, my best wishes go out to everyone involved.


Its easy to blame the tank-stoppers, but I think it was a tree..

No hinklesteins is sight, but the tree is there to the left.

http://500px.com/photo/44127640?from=set/824588

In this picture the duff from the tree is still coming down showing it took a large impact.

http://500px.com/photo/44127638?from=set/824588

Quote
alkun
This was a very sad loss, my best wishes go out to everyone involved.


Its easy to blame the tank-stoppers, but I think it was a tree..

No hinklesteins is sight, but the tree is there to the left.

http://500px.com/photo/44127640?from=set/824588

In this picture the duff from the tree is still coming down showing it took a large impact.

http://500px.com/photo/44127638?from=set/824588

Pretty crappy little tree. Finns mow down clear cuts worth of birches with regularity bigger than that.

Who can say.

We can say that something went horribly wrong, somebody missed the point.
Here is some "Frequently Asked Questions" that I found in English for all you galoots:
http://www.slowlysideways.com/en/faqs

Quote

How is Slowly Sideways organised?
Strictly speaking there is only one Slowly Sideways - that being the one set up in Germany by Reinhard Klein and his family. However, both the United Kingdom and Ireland have their own branches. Steve Rockingham is the committee chairman for the United Kingdom and Fintan Foley for Ireland. There is good liaison and exchanges between all three.
top

Bitte beachten sie original text:

Quote

Wie ist slowly sideways organisiert?
Seit nunmehr 15 Jahren veranstaltet die Familie Klein nun schon diese Demonstrationsfahrten und alle Fäden führen bei ihnen zusammen.

"Since now more than 15 years.....these demonstration runs".

Quote

And the critical one:
I have a suitable car. How can I compete in rallies with Slowly Sideways?
First of all we have to say that we do not have any form of competition. We merely demonstrate our cars on special stages. This makes a considerable difference. To take part in our demonstration you basically just need the right car. The rest also depends on the event organisers. A rally organiser may ask for a certain number of cars to run over their special stages at the convenience of the Clerk of the Course. We may run all the stages or just some.
top

Verrrry Interestink, Schmart:

Quote

Do I need a competition licence?
Strictly speaking no. However, from time to time, particularly in the UK, an organiser may ask if the Slowly Sideways entrants hold a competition licence.

Quote

Do I have to have experience in competitive rallies to be considered by Slowly Sideways?
No, but this is not to say that rally organisers sometimes may ask about the experience of those coming to drive on their stages.

Not a rally, a demonstration. No competition, no licence required, no experience required.. We all know it is a major business restoring old cars, common cars costs $100,000+, so it seems that is the biggest criteria, nothing else..


EDITED Wednesday morning: From Slowly Sideways announcement:
although Rob and Marcel were quite new to Slowly Sideways, they have enriched our lives in the previous years – they were always good fun and great company on our trips to Daun, to the test day in Baumholder or Rallye Deutschland. Just one month ago they even won the spectator voting on the Eifel Rallye Festival.

Quite new.
No licence
No experience required
Not competition, just "demonstration"

The Motto of Slowly Sideways is "The Cars are the Stars"

Essentially it looks like accidents waiting to happen...such a shame people have to die to just so others can have some fun.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2013 10:12AM by john vanlandingham.

I don't get it...

If they are not competing-what's the point?

---

................................................. .....................

Support your Local North American Rally Forum!!

While they are still around-and get the hell off Farsebook!!

We still have Specialstage & RallyAnarchy.

Post up Here:

https://rallyanarchy.com/phorum/posting.php

and here:

https://www.specialstage.com/forums/forum.php

Quote
RALLYRS
I don't get it...

If they are not competing-what's the point?

Remember my ol buddy Thorstein Veblen

Ever heard the old phrase "conspicuous consumption"?

(Ever waving the Red Banner)

Quote

Conspicuous consumption is the spending of money on and the acquiring of luxury goods and services to publicly display economic power — either the buyer’s income or the buyer’s accumulated wealth. Sociologically, to the conspicuous consumer, such a public display of discretionary economic power is a means either of attaining or of maintaining a given social status.

Moreover, invidious consumption, a more specialized sociologic term, denotes the deliberate conspicuous consumption of goods and services intended to provoke the envy of other people, as a means of displaying the buyer’s superior socio-economic status.

Wiki gets Veblem pretty well.

Just a thought--having been around a few elites.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I agree with JVL on this.

There are only four primary drives (in primates): the needs for food, water, warmth, and sex. Folks like me often refer to them as "the four Fs": food, fluid, furs, and sex. Social status is, at best, a secondary drive, but a very powerful one. My guess would be a learned association between having a cool car and sex. Displays of disposable income are a typical way to attract mates.

That a primate would kill itself in a failed attempt to acquire a secondary reinforcer is completely unsurprising. Working at the #1 Party School provides me with examples and/or near-examples on most home-game weekends.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2013 09:32AM by Iowa999.

Since we are all guessing, or second guessing...I'd guess they had no real idea the path they were treading was about to end. First off see that jump? Jumps are bad juju and people seem to be enamored with them. While the car was in flight there looks to be almost no suspension droop. So very tight suspension and when they landed the car could have broken or just bounced. Infinite springs make for an unpredictable result.

Picture from first day shows car probably passing an old Saab. maybe they weren't 'competeing' but they were racing. I'll bet the group was at least keeping their own times. Human nature, we always find a way to compete. Some people are adrenilin junkies, some like to go fast or challenge themselves others just like doing certain things for fun. Rock climbing, boating, parachuting, skiing, swimming, running with bulls, motorcycling and driving cars fast amoung a bazillion other ways to meet ones maker early.

Those unfortunate competitiors were no more foolish than any regional competitor here. A trophy or top spot on Rally Racing is never worth a life. We have our safety rules , helmets, belts, cages, HNRs, restrictors to try an minimize the risks somewhat. We can't really control the human element all that much.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Remember my ol buddy Thorstein Veblen...
Wiki gets Veblem pretty well.

Thanks for the chuckle.

Quote
Wikipedia, about Torstein Veblen
Scholars continue to debate what exactly he meant in his convoluted, ironic and satiric essays; he made heavy use of examples of primitive societies, but many examples were pure invention.

Quote
RALLYRS
If they are not competing-what's the point?

There are tons of 'parade' type events around where people dust of their collector cars and drive around from A to B for little more than the appreciation of the car and a chance to enjoy driving it. In this case, you then add a trifecta of factors that often lead to problems. A closed, controlled road, a jump, and spectators.

Now, we still don't know the actual cause of the accident, although the pix seem to show fully collapsed right rear suspension. How many of us hit a jump, or do anything, assuming the something on the car WILL fail?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.