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john vanlandingham
AS IF IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE ... IF THE DRIVER KILLED A PHOTOGRAPHER OR A CO-DRIVER OR A "ORINARY" SPECTATOR.

My sympathy is with the innocent person killed...

Speaking as an active co-driver, I think it's a big stretch for you to claim that co-drivers are "innocent". We understand the risks involved and sign a waiver to that effect at each event. If your driver is scaring you then it's up to you to either get him under control or, failing that, to step out of the car. I literally trust Martin with my life every time I get into the car with him. In this sport, there is always the possibility of having a big wreck, but if it ever does happen it is more than likely to be my fault as a result of me being late delivering a critical note.

We have an understanding that if either one of us is to blame for killing the other, we've agreed to subsequently never talk to each other again. So there.

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john vanlandingham


The thing I've seen a LOT of on the billions of French tarmac vids I've seen is a car--low cause its tarmac, and low means short travel suspension, bottoming rear suspension badly to the point the cars are bounced up onto just the front wheels..looks scary and is!

Now those hundreds now who have talked with me on suspension know I say that for conceptual purposes that front is about control and is what you feel in your fingertips "and rear suspension is what you feel in your butt".

So heavy bottoming of short travel suspension and crews forced by office drones and bureaucrats to use HANS suddenly 20 fractured LOWER backs....

I don't think [...] I want to be forced to use/do something that is now implicated in that kind of injury...and implicated by people with far more experience, and far more data to help them analyze things..

I don't see how the HANS device plays any role at all in a vertical impact. The HANS tethers are slack when holding your head upright. I've hurt my neck on a hard landing, but I suspect that was due to me tensing up when I saw it coming.

Sure, hard landings on short travel suspension are going to hurt your back. But that has nothing to do with a HANS. Your assertion that the HANS is "implicated" just because the statistics show an increase in back injuries since the HANS was introduced makes no sense, without explaining the mechanics of it.

Your "statistical" conclusion is about as convincing as that of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (may you all be touched by his noodly appendage) who preach that global warming is caused by a lack of pirates as "proven" by this graph (Arrrrrr).

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Ferdinand
I don't see how the HANS device plays any role at all in a vertical impact.

Yah, but what do you know about the dynamics of car crashes...

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2013 11:38AM by Morison.

Quote
Ferdinand
We have an understanding that if either one of us is to blame for killing the other, we've agreed to subsequently never talk to each other again. So there.

Boy did I laugh at this one. It's good enough to quote. Thanks Ferd, for lightening up my day.

---

Don Kennedy

Fredi, I have read much of your reports, understand you well.
Very disappointed that you totally miss the point of reporting what others have said,
It is not MY contention, it is a conclusion I am only reporting..
it is not advocacy---it is 'reportage"
It is not if you or I or some guy on some desolate wasteland out West "understands" or "sees how'..
I mean what is this desire to argue and dismiss and fail to understand that if some people_{---in this case a bunch of Czechs and French, Belge, and others} doing events at the ERC and even WRC level,
report THEIR observations of THEIR experiences _{and if those guys say "since the introduction of compulsory HANS, there is now over 20 people suffering from fractured lumbar vertebra" (that's 'breaking their backs" ya know?) and they are alarmed BECAUSE THIS INJURY WAS EXTREMELY EXTREMELY RARE---ie they say "hard to remember any"}--- do people want to interject or argue their own opinion, and instantly dismiss these other guys reports of their experience, rather than say "damn, I hadn't heard of this...wonder what....?

Then why do you guys all instantly dismiss those guys direct experience?

Is this more of "that's there, this is here aka dis hain't You're Up, everything is different"?
Yeah? Then say where their conclusions of their experience is wrong, and then state the reasoning why.
Remember, this isn't debate, its dialog.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
...I mean what is this desire to ... instantly dismiss these other guys reports of their experience, rather than say "damn, I hadn't heard of this...wonder what....?
Then why do you guys all instantly dismiss those guys direct experience?

For what it's worth my first comment on the issue was:
"I'd love to see the report from the investigation." That stands. I'm really curious how they've come to their conclusions and if there was anything more than just number crunching, which would be akin to blaming global warming on the lack of pirates.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Then say where their conclusions of their experience is wrong, and then state the reasoning why.

Hard to do without seeing the actual conclusions or the actual reasoning.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham
...I mean what is this desire to ... instantly dismiss these other guys reports of their experience, rather than say "damn, I hadn't heard of this...wonder what....?
Then why do you guys all instantly dismiss those guys direct experience?

For what it's worth my first comment on the issue was:
"I'd love to see the report from the investigation." That stands. I'm really curious how they've come to their conclusions and if there was anything more than just number crunching, which would be akin to blaming global warming on the lack of pirates.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Then say where their conclusions of their experience is wrong, and then state the reasoning why.

Hard to do without seeing the actual conclusions or the actual reasoning.

Then why don't you write him?

You're curious, write! You have his name..
Man it's like the Oz study proving the idiocy of restrictors. I report, andf you do nothing.. Even linked to a thread full of guys all discussing what their plans were now that they HAD CHOICE of pump gas w/ no restrictor or FIA spec fuel and restrictor, and whaddya you do?


Wot
Da
Fock

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Then why don't you write him?

Fair enough. I've just registered for yet another forum and have sent a PM.

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john vanlandingham
You're curious, write! You have his name.

Yah, but you were the 'reporter' so I presumed you had read the investigation and/or had some idea where it could be easily found.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
heymagic
First off see that jump? Jumps are bad juju and people seem to be enamored with them.

Regardless of whether this particular accident in the slowly sideways event is due to the jump or other factors, I do agree with this. There are far too many variables and potentials for disaster when jumping.
It seems too much focus has been placed on the spectator wow factor these days (with the placement of distance markers as an example) which appears to have over-ridden competitor safety with the extreme sports X games mentality that is creeping in to motorports.
That may all be very well with the latest and greatest generation of WRC cars with huge suspension travel and no doubt equally large development and safety budgets. But even attempting to emulate that sort of level in old machinery is unfortunately tempting fate with severe consequences.
It ain't rocket science to work that out.
As a related example I keep myself fit by riding a non suspension mountain bike round a track in my local woods. I'll do 20 laps and every lap I hit the same small jump by nailing the take off ramp within a 4 inch window, and without doubt each flight is different and I'll have to adjust body weight and position to make sure I land safely. However you're just a passenger in a car so have no great ability to control anything once airborne.
I just whacked on Van Halen's Jump and whilst safely jumping around to the track found a couple of examples of the Yin Yang of the vehicle jumping game proving that too much planning and safety equipment can be detrimental.

Exhibit 1: Amateur




Exhibit 2: Proffessional

---

Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

Quote
Morison

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john vanlandingham
Then why don't you write him?

Fair enough. I've just registered for yet another forum and have sent a PM.

Quote
john vanlandingham
You're curious, write! You have his name.

Yah, but you were the 'reporter' so I presumed you had read the investigation and/or had some idea where it could be easily found.

I read all the Germanic and Romance languages, they're all cousins, they're all easy.
I don't read Czech or much really of any Slavic languages...Loan words from German and French which they are full of but not the stuff in between.

But more importantly I don't NEED to wade thru the investigation or the Doctors studies, because I am not looking upon with diffidence/doubtful/dubious/apocryphal/pendulous/peevish/suspicious of them or the guy Mirek..Or thinking that I know better then them about their own experiences.
I trust he said what he said for why he said it: people are breaking their backs and it is a sudden thing since the OBLIGATORY use of HANS.
And it is people he knows or knows of..
That is enough for me to report.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2013 09:00PM by john vanlandingham.

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john vanlandingham
Fredi, I have read much of your reports, understand you well.
Very disappointed that you totally miss the point ...

Well Gianni, I'm sorry that you're disappointed.

Quote
john vanlandingham
I don't NEED to wade thru the investigation or the Doctors studies...
I trust he said what he said for why he said it...
That is enough for me to report.

I guess we differ on that. I prefer facts. My mom taught me that, just because somebody wrote something on the internet, it doesn't necessarily make it true. I read through the posts on the forum you quoted, and apparently the FIA gave the "report" all the consideration it deserved before dismissing it.

Unless you keep your belts cinched so tight that you're already in danger of compressing your spine, and unless there is a significant forward loading onto the shoulder belts to lock the HANS into place, as would be experienced in a frontal impact, the HANS can easily slide forward and back under the belts. It does nothing in a vertical impact.

The trivial weight of the HANS unit itself resting on your shoulders is in no way capable of contributing any significant load onto the lumbar vertebrae in a vertical impact.

Fractured lumbar vertebrae will happen in hard landings onto tarmac using short-travel suspension and un-padded seats, regardless of whether you're wearing a HANS or not.

Quote
danster

Quote
heymagic
First off see that jump? Jumps are bad juju and people seem to be enamored with them.

Regardless of whether this particular accident in the slowly sideways event is due to the jump or other factors, I do agree with this. There are far too many variables and potentials for disaster when jumping.
It seems too much focus has been placed on the spectator wow factor these days (with the placement of distance markers as an example) which appears to have over-ridden competitor safety with the extreme sports X games mentality that is creeping in to motorports.

That may all be very well with the latest and greatest generation of WRC cars with huge suspension travel and no doubt equally large development and safety budgets. But even attempting to emulate that sort of level in old machinery is unfortunately tempting fate with severe consequences.
It ain't rocket science to work that out.

The 'old machinery' suspension travel is highly variable (hmmmm, just like today!) so be careful about too broad a statement there; for example, 50 series Opels (Ascona A and Manta A) had 9" stock travel F & R. The Ford Escorts were very similar and Datsun 510's had a lot of travel in stock from too. (That all had to do with being 4 passenger sedans, 5 in a pinch, with a huge possible loaded weight variation.) The TR7's did not have much travel at all.

But yes, the extreme sports mentality and the showmanship (show-'off'-ship??) is bad for safety. Then again, there have been dramatic jumps for many decades in the Finland rally; so it is not all new and not all due to the extreme sports mentality.

Regardless, it's a bad scene.

Mark B.

Quote
Ferdinand

Quote
john vanlandingham
Fredi, I have read much of your reports, understand you well.
Very disappointed that you totally miss the point ...

Well Gianni, I'm sorry that you're disappointed.

Quote
john vanlandingham
I don't NEED to wade thru the investigation or the Doctors studies...
I trust he said what he said for why he said it...
That is enough for me to report.

I guess we differ on that. I prefer facts. My mom taught me that, just because somebody wrote something on the internet, it doesn't necessarily make it true. I read through the posts on the forum you quoted, and apparently the FIA gave the "report" all the consideration it deserved before dismissing it.

Unless you keep your belts cinched so tight that you're already in danger of compressing your spine, and unless there is a significant forward loading onto the shoulder belts to lock the HANS into place, as would be experienced in a frontal impact, the HANS can easily slide forward and back under the belts. It does nothing in a vertical impact.

The trivial weight of the HANS unit itself resting on your shoulders is in no way capable of contributing any significant load onto the lumbar vertebrae in a vertical impact.

Fractured lumbar vertebrae will happen in hard landings onto tarmac using short-travel suspension and un-padded seats, regardless of whether you're wearing a HANS or not.

OK facts, huh.
These guys are there and are experiencing this, and had not before..
Fact; their events have been tarmac since before I remember, well before Skoda 130 Super Estelle was the hot thing (what a car! Did "tarmac stages" as "co-driver" (actually hitch-hiking) all night long heading from Nis towards Beograd along the Juzna Morava then the Velika Morava rivers Oi OI!!)

You're in Canada and not there.
Does your personal experience trump/negate their personal experience?

You use loaded phrase "the FIA gave the "report" all the consideration it deserved".

Fact: neither you nor i has seen the report
fact: we are both choosing to belive somebody.
Fact: I choose to listen to those in immediate contact who knows the crews breaking lumbar vertebrae

Fact; You believe some unknown, unidentifiable, person in an office a long way away--who you don't even know if they examined the report or understood the data...

I have found in life its often better bet to listen to sources as close as possible to whatever you're trying to understand---rather than people far away...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
But more importantly I don't NEED to wade thru the investigation or the Doctors studies, because I am not suspicious of them or the guy Mirek.

I guess there's a significant difference. I don't see asking questions or looking at something critically as the same as being 'suspicious' of anything.

Quote
john vanlandingham
I trust he said what he said for why he said it: people are breaking their backs and it is a sudden thing since the OBLIGATORY use of HANS.
And it is people he knows or knows of.

Frankly, I'm not questioning that.
For the sake of the discussion I won't dispute the idea that back injuries have increased since obligatory use of HANS.
The issue is the report - apparently - goes on to suggest HANS device use should be optional because more people are breaking their backs since it was made mandatory.
The suggestion is the HANS device is a significant factor in the mechanism of injury leading to the broken backs. That simply doesn't make sense. If you look at the device, how its worn, and how it transmits/manages loads, it is hard to imagine it leading to lumbar injuries.
That's enough for me to start asking questions. It should be enough for anyone to start asking questions if the have any critical thinking skills at all.

If that isn't enough, the ASN(s) that the report was submitted to reviewed and dismissed it. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2013 04:36PM by Morison.

Quote
john vanlandingham
I have found in life its often better bet to listen to sources as close as possible to whatever you're trying to understand---rather than people far away...

Do you at least recognize that people can be, at times, too close to something to be considered a good and comprehensive source?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Regarding HANS and possible link to lumbar injury:

As a tall guy with a tall torso, I can see how this is certainly possible. Finding a seat that fits and I feel safe in has been a big challenge made more difficult due to the HANS.

1) Wearing a HANS requires that you wear your belts tighter than you might have previously--this may be because you used to wear them looser than you should have and never noticed until your HANS was slipping around underneath it.
2) The Hans yoke & padding adds about 1" in total height to my shoulders which already exceed the height of most race seat harness slot openings. So, now the harnesses induce additional vertical load on the spine in both frontal and vertical impacts.

It was always my impression that the lap belt was designed to hold you DOWN into the seat by your pelvis while the shoulder belts should hold you BACK into the seat. So, any time the top of your shoulder/HANS assembly sits above the bottom of the harness slot-opening, it has the potential to induce vertical spine load (even if the attachment point is horizontal or even with the height of the shoulder/HANS). In my case, this is made even worse because in most seats, the harness slots through the hole and then up and over the shoulder/HANS effectively magnifying the leverage of the harness to induce a vertical load.

And, of course, the shoulder harnesses should be mounted so they go back horizontally from the shoulder to the mounting point, not down...

---

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