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Josh Wimpey
Regarding HANS and possible link to lumbar injury:

As a tall guy with a tall torso, I can see how this is certainly possible. Finding a seat that fits and I feel safe in has been a big challenge made more difficult due to the HANS.

1) Wearing a HANS requires that you wear your belts tighter than you might have previously--this may be because you used to wear them looser than you should have and never noticed until your HANS was slipping around underneath it.
2) The Hans yoke & padding adds about 1" in total height to my shoulders which already exceed the height of most race seat harness slot openings. So, now the harnesses induce additional vertical load on the spine in both frontal and vertical impacts.

It was always my impression that the lap belt was designed to hold you DOWN into the seat by your pelvis while the shoulder belts should hold you BACK into the seat. So, any time the top of your shoulder/HANS assembly sits above the bottom of the harness slot-opening, it has the potential to induce vertical spine load (even if the attachment point is horizontal or even with the height of the shoulder/HANS). In my case, this is made even worse because in most seats, the harness slots through the hole and then up and over the shoulder/HANS effectively magnifying the leverage of the harness to induce a vertical load.

And, of course, the shoulder harnesses should be mounted so they go back horizontally from the shoulder to the mounting point, not down...

Thanks for making this point for everyone's benefit, Josh. I been keeping an eye on this issue, and agree that it is a problem. If your height exceeds 6', then there does not seem to be a seat that has the harness holes high enough to avoid the problem you describe. There ARE seats with different hole heights out there, so you tall guys need to pay attention to this.

Not at all sure that was an issue in this tragic incident. I would look to the driver's side impact first, rather than a hard landing.

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Ferdinand
Rally cars have no airbags.

You're relying solely on your harness and seat to hold you firmly within your protective rollcage. Everything outside of the cage can be crushed to slow you down. Everything inside the cage has to stay firmly in place.

You do NOT want your belts stretching and giving!

Thanks for all the good info on the stock type restaint actions. That was very educational, and validates to some degree the thinking that some belt stretch OF THE RIGHT TYPE AND DISTANCE can be good. But, your final admonitions reflect the present state-of-the-art thinking.

So folks will know, the FIA approach some years back was to have belt stretch; it was encouraged in the way the FIA rally rules were written, with references to anchoring harnesses to the package shelf above the rear seat or putting a harness bar in that approximate location. But there have been a number of changes in thinking, some associated with H&N devices, and some form the realization that frontal crashes are not necessarily the main problem that have led to a change in that thinking.

Perhaps a more key realization is that the head will move far, far more forward in a frontal crash that you would ever instinctively imagine. Find some crash films of dummies on sleds, and that becomes pretty clear. Belt stretch brings in a much greater possibility of the head moving so far forward as to hit the front part of the cage, bringing the possiblity of death from that cause. (Asuming you did not suffer basilar skull fracture..)

As far as spinal compression due to the forward motion of the upper body, I can only think out loud on that subject. A tight, short harress may indeed be worse. This can be seen by thinking about where the body is forced to go as it moves forward within the location constraints of the belts. But that may not really change for the better with stretchy belts; it depends really on the exact stretch and decceleration charicteristics of the belts. We tend to imagine a stretchy belt as having a fairly linear increase in tension with stretch but that may not be so; it might have a quick stretch of several inches with a small tension increase followed by an abrupt tension increase and abrupt stop; that would not improve things over tight belts. (Edit to add: And I see Morrison was posting at the same time with the info that belt stretch is non-linear.)

So short harnesses with minimal stretch is the best practice thinking these days. It's all a compromise to some degree condering the speeds, limited protection space, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2013 10:43AM by starion887.

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john vanlandingham
OK facts, huh.
These guys are there and are experiencing this, and had not before..


I have found in life its often better bet to listen to sources as close as possible to whatever you're trying to understand---rather than people far away...

People have a lot of bias when taking their experience and applying it to broader situation. If this guy sees 2 broken backs, he might say their incidents are way up in rally all over the country and he could very well be wrong.

Most nurses, who are there, will tell you that the ER is busier when it's a full moon. If you actually look at the information there is no correlation in ER activity with the phases of the moon.

Most parents will tell you their kids are hyperactive when they eat sugar. In a double blind test, where the kids don't know if they got sugar or not, and the parents don't know which kids got sugar or not, there is no correlation.

Statements like 'incidents of X are trending in some direction and it's due to factor Y' are not statements to just be believed from any individual.

Nothing wrong with skeptical questioning, but then again, there isn't anything more to be learned from other random internet forum goers either.

Tim.

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Iowa999
Schroth makes a funky belt for street cars that tries to walk a fine line down the middle. The inside shoulder's belt is designed to stretch more than the outside. Thus, you have some give (and a way to escape the roof if you roll a cageless car), but you don't end up banging against the window or flying out of your seat.

It's an anti submarine device. The shoulder belts are pulling the lap belt up because it's not anchored by the 5th belt, but allowing one to stretch a bit makes your upper body rotate around and forward, keeping you from going under the lap belt.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Still nothing back from the dude on the other forum. No idea if he's even seen my PM politely asking for the report.

---

First Rally: 2001
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
Still nothing back from the dude on the other forum. No idea if he's even seen my PM politely asking for the report.

Did you tell him you read Czech? At least they use roman alphabet but I'm betting that you don't read it.. Do you?
probably he's busy--Barum rally is going right now
http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=7315&s=44004&t=Barum-Czech-Rally-Zlin-2013
and he's doubtles there in some capacity.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

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Quote
john vanlandingham
Did you tell him you read Czech? At least they use roman alphabet but I'm betting that you don't read it.. Do you?

Nope, I didn't tell him I read czech because that is fundamentally irrelevant.
I was asking for a copy of the report and the language it is in doesn't particularly matter.

You're right, I don't read Czech. (Although you really had no basis to think that) but I can deal with that easily enough. Worst case scenario - being it is an optical scan of a document - is I turn to some czech friends to sort it out. Best case is it is a text based PDF and I google translate it, and will still get the basics if even 30% of the translation is garbage.

Quote
john vanlandingham
probably he's busy--Barum rally is going right now
http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=7315&s=44004&t=Barum-Czech-Rally-Zlin-2013 and he's doubtles there in some capacity.

Fair enough.

---

First Rally: 2001
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

God speed to these guys. It is hard to look at these pics. The pic I believe shows the codriver still in the car and if that is his helmet there is no head neck restaint at all. Also they are wingless cushiond seats. Side impacts are tuff and super hard to make safe. To me I would hope that a head restraint and a winged seat could and would hopfully have saved at least the codriver in this case.going solly by these pics.

Thankfully there is another head restraint now legal that is suposed to help with the lower back injuries. I have a hans but my codriver has the hybrid pro and he likes it. Im up in the air on the hybrid the hans is easy to put on and off quick. the hybrid seems to slow if you want to pop off your helmet in the car on transit.

---

First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
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Quote
john vanlandingham
Did you tell him you read Czech? At least they use roman alphabet but I'm betting that you don't read it.. Do you?
probably he's busy--Barum rally is going right now...

Heard back from him and the report is going through a revision with updated information. Interestingly he hasn't actually seen the original report himself.
It'll be interesting to see what it does say. Apparently another lower back injury this weekend being attributed to the HANS.

---

First Rally: 2001
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Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
Apparently another lower back injury this weekend being attributed to the HANS.

Well get on there and team up with the other Canadian already debating furiously and tell them how they're all wrong.
You can do it.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Well get on there and team up with the other Canadian already debating furiously and tell them how they're all wrong.
You can do it.

Why would I bother. Their ASN and the FIA have already effectively done that already.

I also haven't seen the information they are relying on to make their point, so how can I tell them they are wrong or, conversely, support them as being right.

What I do know is that a few days after an event is a bit too soon to be making definitive comments about the cause of an injury and no-matter how much you want to believe it, linking lower back injuries to the HANS device is really REALLY tenuous.

That's why I said I'd like to see the report and that's why I followed up to see if I could get a copy.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

A complete lack of understanding of many many other things you admit you are not qualified in or experienced with has never prevented you from pounding out reams and reams (what's the electronic version of reams?) of a plethora of ponderously parsed peripatetic platitudes previously, why stop now?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
A complete lack of understanding of many many other things you admit you are not qualified in or experienced with has never prevented you from pounding out reams and reams (what's the electronic version of reams?) of a plethora of ponderously parsed peripatetic platitudes previously, why stop now?

As much as I love alteration, that doesn't make the above statement any closer to the truth. Apparently you're not prepared to 'play nice' on this forum, which is really sad.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

John and Keith:

Pop some Zolofts or smoke a phattie or three. Despite what the voices in your heads keep saying, neither of you is Satan, don't try to start a fight even when you're largely in agreement (John). I love a good interweb fight more than most, but this shit has gone waaaaaaaay the hell past the Monty Python "I was looking for an argument, this is abuse!" skit, and it's getting fucking tiresome.

Both of you, when you feel the need to spout some vitriolic post, I suggest you type it in Word, go to bed, and then the next day, if it still feels like it's Fair and Balanced, then maybe sleep on it for another day or two...then post. Sometimes you just have to SHUT. THE FUCK. UP.

Thank you.

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

I find it interesting how a lot of points discussed and argued here are explicitly shown in this mounting instructions: https://www.schrothracing.com/sdocs/2009_Competition_Instructions.pdf

The pics on page 11 show clearly that belts stretch a lot (therefore you want shortest possible belts as even in that configuration there will be a lot of give. And you certainly want your belts to stretch, irregarding the timing of peak deceleration, as having bells stretch will necesseraly reduce the total energy which needs to be absorbed by the body. But if they stretch too far then you hit the steering wheel defeating the point of the belts). The pics also show why one might want to wear Hans device, look at the motion of the head without hans. Finally, they explicitly state that shoulder harness should not be mounted below shoulder levels, or spinal column compression will result. As someone pointed out, Hans will exacerbate this requirement, potentially explain all those spinal column compressions.

Klim