Rally car emissions

John, You would be interested in knowing I planned on putting a 1.8l M42 (the better 4 cyl twin cam BMW engine) in this car initially. A local road racer wrecked his e36 M3 and needed to re body it so he purchased a 318i and parted it out. I tried to get the engine but it was sold before I could get my hands on it. I also have a bmw s14 sitting in my garage. Now that would be a good combination but it would never pass emission and rebuilding repairing the four cylinder M motor is not a budget exercise.

I still am considering a four cylinder and a M42 and it should be capable or 150-160 hp with out spending buckets of money on it. I also have read that BMW's european four cylinder diesel cranks fit and have a throw of 88mm (maybe ~2100cc?).

I would love to throw a ford engine in the car... Easy to work on, light, good power, cheap parts, but it wouldn't be legal in most rules.

The car certainly would be a great novice car with a 150hp and not a bunch of weight over the front axle, but the torque of the six can also mask many novice mistakes as well.

I will have to think about this one a bit! Thanks for all the info and ideas.

Quote
Nate.Vincent
John, You would be interested in knowing I planned on putting a 1.8l M42 (the better 4 cyl twin cam BMW engine) in this car initially. A local road racer wrecked his e36 M3 and needed to re body it so he purchased a 318i and parted it out. I tried to get the engine but it was sold before I could get my hands on it. I also have a bmw s14 sitting in my garage. Now that would be a good combination but it would never pass emission and rebuilding repairing the four cylinder M motor is not a budget exercise.

I still am considering a four cylinder and a M42 and it should be capable or 150-160 hp with out spending buckets of money on it. I also have read that BMW's european four cylinder diesel cranks fit and have a throw of 88mm (maybe ~2100cc?).

I would love to throw a ford engine in the car... Easy to work on, light, good power, cheap parts, but it wouldn't be legal in most rules.

The car certainly would be a great novice car with a 150hp and not a bunch of weight over the front axle, but the torque of the six can also mask many novice mistakes as well.

I will have to think about this one a bit! Thanks for all the info and ideas.

With torque from gearing it doesn't matter if the motor only makes 130 ft/lbs (remember the important thing is the tiorque the engine makes, and using gearing to make torque means the thing makes xx5 more torque at 2200 rpm, at 3800rpm, at 5000 rpm, 7000 rpm, every rpm..)

And the 16v thing is a good bottom end, very nice head, and ---with gearing---no need to make it 2100cc and diesel crank thing...
Just more compression and some proper cams... I am a CP dealer and a set of custom high comp pistons---the only thing you need in the bottom end--in any size, and configuration is $720..
Bottom end done.
Head: some cams with lumps vs teardrops, maybe springs, and touch the flat side of the valve locks against a stone so they do not bottom on eachother, but grab the valve itself.

Head: done

(You have to figure out how to add fuel and optimise spark) (and do 2 maps...one for fun, one for the test)


Out here we have had several guys running the nice old AE86 Toiletta Commodah with the little 4AGE, Toyotas clone of Ford Cosworth BDA..
And a friend has been beating the only thing I have driven in rally, same year (1969) and same awesome red color: Garth in his Saab 96 V4---cast iron with PUSHRODS..
These guys have done fine, surprisingly good even consider how small the motors are..
The Toyota guys all have Dana 30 (Volvo 240) axles with 5.35:1 final drive.
Garth in the might Saab V4 has 5.43:1, same as I used for 10 years..

( I come from 20years of moto-cross...there was traditionally--until the Japanses lobbied thru changes---3 classes:125cc, 250cc, and 500cc. Worldwide one thing was consistant: there were more guys that could do well with 125s, less but still plenty of guys on 250s and 500 class was always the slowest class, be it Novice, Intermediate or expert. I was best on 250s...and a guy I knew pretty well once said "there's really probably 5, maybe 6 guys who are faster on 500 bikes (which were then around 390 to 440cc) in the world".. He probably should know since he was 5 times 500cc World Champion
Don't worry about BIG. Do "right"...)

Then some 5.1 to 5.3 back axle.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

When I first got digging into my Compact build, I really wanted to use an S14. That's what a bunch of the guys in Europe were using and I....THAT. SOUND. MMMM. ITBs. I remember stumbling across a S2000 powered Compact that tipped the scales at 980kg too. But then reality set in when I couldn't find a used S14 engine for under $5k, and the few I did find needed complete overhauls, which is damn expensive in itself (like another $4-5k).

I had a 240,000 mile M42 and I also looked into getting that rebuilt, but in the end it would've been more money and less power. I ended up picking up a 70,000 mile S50 so that I'd still be Group 2 legal.

To the OP, if you didn't have the emissions issue, non-manufacturer swaps are allowed to run with NASA. You could also run it in Rally America events but I think technically they're not legal to score points or something like that.

Weight on the 6-cyl is right around 300 lbs and the 4-cyl is about 200 lbs.

Dave



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2014 11:56AM by DaveK.

To answer the original question, if you live in Pennsylvania and put less than 5000 miles a year on the car, there's no emissions test required.

BTW. I can't believe John hasn't hit you up yet on this.

To OP, please update your location info.

---

Don Kennedy

Quote
DaveK


Weight on the 6-cyl is right around 300 lbs and the 4-cyl is about 200 lbs.

Dave

Sorry Dave but both of those are crazy.
A 4 cylinder Volvo--with aluminum head--is right at 300 lbs.
a Duratec 2,0 with a CAD and FEA designed all alloy motor with a sunstantially similar packaging weighs 218 lb

The 4 cylinder 1800/1900 BMW is a stout little puppy---I have torn one down---which was getting thrown out ---and although its compact and nice--it ios an iron block and a nice crank and a pretty big head...

must have talked to the same wrong guys as you talked to since you threw yours out..

Have you considered you are getting wrong or greedy information?
HOW in the world is it supposed to cost $4000-$5000 for a simple rebuild?
Bullshit. No mystery in the thing, really quite convention--that's why I like it, ya noez?
Basically they need so little

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Have you considered you are getting wrong or greedy information?
HOW in the world is it supposed to cost $4000-$5000 for a simple rebuild?
Bullshit. No mystery in the thing, really quite convention--that's why I like it, ya noez?
Basically they need so little

Did some more digging, turns out the internet has provided more information (and more accurate) since I dug up all the info in 2009ish:

Engine weights:

http://www.bimmerforums.com/?p=70

I guess the weights that I was able to dig up 5 years ago were essentially long blocks, so block and head with no accessories or manifolds. It still generally results in the 4-cyl being about 100 lbs lighter and my decision to go with the six was simply I'd deal with the extra 100 lbs weight penalty and not spend $5k on a race engine.

I just found this thread from 2012 that has some more information on fully dressed engines.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=233682


Back in 2009 when I was figuring all this stuff out I had a hard time finding much information online about even getting an M42/44 rebuilt with go fast bits. 99.9% of people just swapped to a 6-cyl. These guys were one of the few that had info readily available and were highly recommended by the various forums:

http://www.metricmechanic.com/product-prices/engines/m42-m44/

Quick digging on rebuilding an S14 wasn't any better, but the performance numbers you'd get certainly were...but don't forget that used ones in need of a rebuild can set you back ~$5k, whereas the M42/44 are just a couple hundred.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?604448-Basic-S14-rebuild-cost

In both cases the big heavy 6 won out. I got started on my Compact as a relatively low spec 'cheap' car where if I broke an engine, just find another $1,500-$2000 used M3 motor and toss it in there. BMW motors are known for lasting well into the 200k range, so the supply of still running used stuff is reasonably large. Of course I've broken my fair share of stuff, but nothing to say I wouldn't have grenaded a built motor too...I've done it on the evo and a new block (bare block) runs $1k.

All that said, if you'd like to (re)build me a full spec race S14 for peanuts, I'd happily put that in the car and order up a new 5.xx $140 R&P for my supra diff whenever it's time for a new motor. Betcha I'd even be faster in it that way because by then, maybe I'll have 4 or 5 rallies under my belt. When I drove the 328 at Ojibwe and 100AW it was pretty clear it wasn't the engine that was holding me back at all. Seat time seat time seat time...of course at a local hillclimb course that I know well, give me moar powah!

Dave

John any more information on that Duratec powered E30? Looks like an interesting build. Has it made it to the stage roads. Looks more like a hey we figured this out kinda now pay us to build you one type of post.

Well after this conversation I'm leaning towards a m42/m44 build. I have access to machines and some really skilled machinist. I would feel more confident as a novice with the little easier to handle four banger in the car.

I have sourced a spare M42 that broke it's timing chain but I got it pretty much for free. These engines are easy to find.

Dave, What specific Toyota diff are you running and You say there is 5.XX gearing available for cheap money?

John, do you really think the increase in stroke isn't worth it? The cranks can be found for say $300 and will bolt directly in with custom pistons. Cams aren't cheap and are going to make it harder to pass emissions. Cat cams seems to have the best set up for either the M44 or M42 at about a grand. Plus the cost of springs and retainers. Would it be worth my while to convert to solid lifter and allow the engine to rev more?

Quote
Nate.Vincent
Dave, What specific Toyota diff are you running and You say there is 5.XX gearing available for cheap money?

Little bit of background:

Ratios of small case 4.44 are common in the automatic BMWs and LSDs aren't that difficult to find. In the medium case diff (what internet wizzzzdom told me you had to use with torque of 6-cyl), the 4.27 is out there but really hard to find. Anything above that (numerically) is "M" parts and you're talking $1100 for a R&P. That's what drove me to stick a supra diff in the car because I was thinking I wanted something geared to top out around 125mph. Of course when I finally got to drive the car, it was pretty apparent there was zero need to even go into the 4.xx range because it makes 1st gear useless, and transits start to suck (gearbox ratios not ideal).

But back to your question, I used a Mk3 supra diff (same one John uses in the Xratty upgrade kit). These share the same R&P as the offroad trucks, so loads of ratios available and for cheap. After driving the torque of a 6-cyl there's zero need for ratios of 4.3 (and higher numerically). Getting the diff to stay in my car has been a huge headache and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. If there was a drop-in kit, maybe I'd do it again, but way too much fabrication time to be worth it unless your time is free.

I'd say do some searching around and see what ratios are available for the small case diff. My 328 uses a small case diff and in the rally world they seem to hold up fine. Maybe not if I was doing tarmac launches with fat slicks, but in the dirt the tires slip before the diff explodes.

Dave

Quote
Nate.Vincent
Well after this conversation I'm leaning towards a m42/m44 build. I have access to machines and some really skilled machinist. I would feel more confident as a novice with the little easier to handle four banger in the car.

If you go that route and decide to build a header for it, I have a spare header flange I made for an m44 Z3 years ago which I never used.

You can have it. I will never use it.

My shop is in South Windsor CT.

---

Opel is a 4-letter word...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10498579@N07/sets/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2014 11:07AM by Ascona73.

I considered going with the 4 cylinder for ease. Cost is about same for 2.8 though so why not get more.

---

Grant Hughes

Nate, I think the smart money is to drop in a stock 4 cylinder engine in or swap to one of the base 6 cylinders and go rally. Just focus on making it reliable and running well. Spend your cash on a cage, suspension, and safety gear.

As Dave said earlier seat time, seat time, seat time. Don't bother with custom difs or final drives or what not for the first rally or 10. All of that can be upgraded later once you have the basics of how to get around at a rally and how not to crash too much. And once you feel you need more power you have options.

http://maine.craigslist.org/cto/4649236351.html

Run that stock---no emissions problems.
add 4.3 Supra diff and then have fun.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Found a guy on FB yesterday in Denver parting a late 90s 328. The car was an automatic, but he wanted $600 for the engine and all the wiring/ECU bits to drop it into another OBD-II car. Deals are out there, just gotta have $$ ready to jump on deals right as they pop up.

For reference I'm attempting to fix the motor in my red car (loss of compression) and here's what I'm looking at cost wise:

• $200 gasket kit (Elring brand...avoid some of the cheapie head gaskets)
• $190 ARP head studs (OE are ~$14 each, so not much diff)
• $50 decking the head 0.004"

So, I'm at $440 to fix it in just parts...but for another $160 I could've had a complete motor ready to drop in (save the welded oil pump nut). I don't have the BMW specialty cam tools so paying a buddy to help out with the swap stuff, but I guess if I bought the other motor, I'd still be paying to have that done so I could have the M3 cams in it.

Dave