Rally car emissions

Hello all, I'm new to the forum. I just started a rally build on a 98 318ti. I got the car cheap with a big hole in the side of the block. I am planning on swapping in a six cylinder into it. My questions is how do you get modified rally cars to pass emission or is there trick or laws around this? Technically I can swap in another OBDII engine and I should be able to pass emissions but that will be with air pumps and complicated evap systems not to mention a lot of tracking down little issues in a engine swap car. Not sure how well that will stand up in a rally environment. A lot of people are running new cars and I have a feeling that not all would pass emissions. Please any tricks or tips would be appreciated. Also I live in Connecticut.

Nate

This question is really going to be state dependent. Best advice is find out how folks in your home state get project cars through the testing process. In some places you'll find its easier to just start with an OBD-I car as the testing stations don't get as much information from the diagnostic plug as they can from OBD-II.

Here in Colorado as long as the new car blows clean on the rolling dyno test and you have the required number of cats in the correct places you're good to go. If you've got an OBD-II car they can plug into it and read fault codes, but that's no longer a cause for failure...and you can just tuck the plug out of the way so they don't see it. Many folks have an "emissions exhaust" and another "racing exhaust," though both will have cats in them. I've taken a 1997 318is with a 2.8L swap and nobody at the emissions station batted an eye at the extra two cylinders.

Dave

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DaveK
This question is really going to be state dependent. Best advice is find out how folks in your home state get project cars through the testing process. In some places you'll find its easier to just start with an OBD-I car as the testing stations don't get as much information from the diagnostic plug as they can from OBD-II.

Here in Colorado as long as the new car blows clean on the rolling dyno test and you have the required number of cats in the correct places you're good to go. If you've got an OBD-II car they can plug into it and read fault codes, but that's no longer a cause for failure...and you can just tuck the plug out of the way so they don't see it. Many folks have an "emissions exhaust" and another "racing exhaust," though both will have cats in them. I've taken a 1997 318is with a 2.8L swap and nobody at the emissions station batted an eye at the extra two cylinders.

Dave

Dave, be a good boy and tell the guy about the what 3 engine failures you had and specifically what failed..
My help him NOT make some big, expensive costly mistakes....

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Dave, be a good boy and tell the guy about the what 3 engine failures you had and specifically what failed..
My help him NOT make some big, expensive costly mistakes....

The late 1994 early 1995 build date S50 motors had the same head components as the M50 motors but with an extra 800 or 1000rpm redline. The valve retainers were known to fail with extended use near the rev limiter.

For all M5x or S5x motors weld the oil pump nut, because a spin out where the clutch stays in can cause the lock nut to loosen up, and at some random (usually at a poor time) will completely back off resulting in zero oil pressure. If you're an idiot like me and it happens on stage and you have the POR spirit, you'll be buying a new to you engine shortly thereafter.

The third failure was buying a $700 junkyard motor. I'm starting to be convinced I was sold a bad motor that was already down on compression, but it did get a little warm at 100AW. Make sure the radiator ductwork is all in place so any air going thru the bumper is forced through the core and that should really help.

Dave

Dave, thanks for the info. I knew about the oil pump nuts but not the early s50 head issues. I think on my budget a M52 with S52 cams will be the engine of choice. Plus that engine will keep it under 3 liters. Frankly I'm a novice and not concerned with power but would like to set the car up for a six cylinder initially rather than setting it up for a four cylinder and then setting it up again for a six cylinder. I will keep OBDII and make the emissions officer happy every two years by re-installing the air pump and stock mid section. Dave you said that you have swapped a 318i with a m52 and had it pass OBDII check?

John, I've been told you are the guy to see about suspension. I believe you are currently building a set for my friend and neighbor Dan McGinn for his e30? Note, I might be an interested party.

Nate

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Nate.Vincent
Dave, thanks for the info. I knew about the oil pump nuts but not the early s50 head issues. I think on my budget a M52 with S52 cams will be the engine of choice. Plus that engine will keep it under 3 liters. Frankly I'm a novice and not concerned with power but would like to set the car up for a six cylinder initially rather than setting it up for a four cylinder and then setting it up again for a six cylinder. I will keep OBDII and make the emissions officer happy every two years by re-installing the air pump and stock mid section. Dave you said that you have swapped a 318i with a m52 and had it pass OBDII check?

John, I've been told you are the guy to see about suspension. I believe you are currently building a set for my friend and neighbor Dan McGinn for his e30? Note, I might be an interested party.

Nate

I think that's a good choice on the engine. No cost premium for the "M" stuff and it'll still make plenty of power to spin the wheels and have big smiles (probably more than at least 75% of the 2wd cars currently running.

I'm still trying to figure out what to do on that car for the rear suspension. It'll have JVAB 40mm on the front, but the AVO shocks it came with blew apart at my first event, and I'd like some slightly stiffer rear springs (328 convertible) to better match what's up front. Will be curious to see what you and John come up with. I worked with him on some rear dampers that work on the hatchback's e30 style rear suspension and welded in turrets. For this car though, I'd like to keep the OE shock mount locations so that it can be converted to a pavement pounder on short order.

Dave

I've got a 97 that is going to get the same treatment with the 2.8L.

---

Grant Hughes

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NoCoast
I've got a 97 that is going to get the same treatment with the 2.8L.

...slated for completion in 2019...which is probably when mine will make it's stage rally debut...damnit!

Has anyone considered a full custom rear subframe/suspension in a e36 compact/ e30. The trailing arms have massive camber and caster changes through the travel. I know Hockly Motorsports has a set up but those cars are almost 100% tarmac. I think it would be pretty easy to add beefy shock tower turrets and convert to a "A" arm strut style rears suspension. Isn't that what most WRC cars are running?

Any interest or thoughts?

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Nate.Vincent
Has anyone considered a full custom rear subframe/suspension in a e36 compact/ e30. The trailing arms have massive camber and caster changes through the travel. I know Hockly Motorsports has a set up but those cars are almost 100% tarmac. I think it would be pretty easy to add beefy shock tower turrets and convert to a "A" arm strut style rears suspension. Isn't that what most WRC cars are running?

Any interest or thoughts?

Interest - No.
Thoughts - Waste of resources.
The rear STA on a Merkur has even greater change through it's travel and was able to win WRC events overall against AWD cars in the late 80s. It's a non-issue in my opinion.

If you are worried about that, you should get a Coupe. The Compact design is rugged and sufficient. We have a rear turret developed for the Compact that will allow use of a 10" travel rear shock using all of the available travel.

---

Grant Hughes

A little note in this love fest of Blut Merde What-have you..

Neither Grant or Dave or very many others here could be called "engine builders"...
They and a few others have the big hard-on for these big heavy 6s.. The fancy schmatzy ones do make good power--well OK power for a 3.0 liter thing with all the whoop-de-doo shit like the variable cam timing...

Like most guys who aren't engine builders, they fixate on ENGINE...

I am what you'd call an "engine builder" and have worked on real proper race engines since I can't remember..1969 maybe at the earliest..

And I've built a lot of motors of various kinds...20 years of race 2 strokes---30 years of miserable car 4 strokes at a serious "nearly every day" sort of thing.. National championship winning level in Gp2 back when people built good Group 2 cars..
In 1994 215 hp Saab 16v 2.0 motor, NW region winning 2,0 EJ20 Subie motor for general all arond nice guy Dave Hintz in I dunno--when ever it was wee got 34mm restrictor. 2004? 2005?

And unlike anybody I know in North American rally, I raced and made a very good living--about 5-6X my wage as a fully qualified machinist--not rich but better than a poke in the eye with a rock..not rally but something with 100x more depth and waay waaaaaay harder physically and mentally---5-6 events a month.

These guys somehow forget--when you have a boner as big as these guysd have for the Bee Em Vay, I guess the old saying "there ain't enough blood for the brain when the little head is all swollen" is true.---they forget that we don't drive motors, we drive CARS. And once the motor has made its torque, it goes to the gearbox where speed is reduced, and torque is multiplied....then it goes to final drive where irt is multiplied again, and torque is multipliesd again..

Gear the 4 banger correctly and use a short final drive and it'll go just as quickly as the fancy schmatzy 3.0---which is poorly geared in the box and insanely overgeared in the achsübersetzung for anything other than cruising der autobahn immer gerade aus, immer vollgaz!

And that was amply demonstrated with a young Aussie Brendan Reeves in a little 1.6 liter, normal aspirated car--a FWD one at that (oh! the huge manatee!!) came and embarrassed everybody in the whole Continent by beating all but 2-3 uber expensive big engined turbo AWD things--they too were shamed because he wasn't being beaten that badly..

So the 3.0 thing with all the weight and all the trouble and its horrible gearing--which admittedly, in the land of the blind men a few have done quite well-

--but there's nothing saying those guys would have done BETTER were they in a smaller engined car--with the right gearset and final drive.


And note that the shitty German 3 groove valve locks/ valve keeper/split collets have plagued engine builders all the way back to the beginning of time.. It is not unique to one BMW engine, it is a chronic problem on all engines using the Germans 3 groove OEM keepers...I've mentioned repeatedly what the solution is--never heard any hint that it was apprehended....
Don't run those valve locks un-modded...unless you think your motor is blessed by Sinter Klas.

Frankly for a Noob to be expending time and potentially money and effort to do the big beast 6 before ever doing an event is folly in my opinion...
Now Be Em fans (the Germans are all pervers weisst du, es ist immer blut un scheisse!!,
Natürlich sollten wir ein BMW fanboi eine Be Em nennen. Bee Em oder BM, wissen Sie wie eine große Scheiße, die weißt du?） hate the 16v 4.. Be smart, take advantage of that and pick up one for NUTHIN! And get some pistons that make some compression , some non-emissions cams and call it good--then put the money in the important things:gearing and final drive..

Next E30s with short short trailing aroms really don't do much camber gain or toe when those short fuckers cycle thru their arcs..
Data in on the net----not interesting in wasting time. they don't do that bad..Xr4ti with LONGER arms do even less. Grant should understand the business of lengths and arcs and see the longer Xratty arms and poof that should say "Less'.

Its not important. Its only important for prima donna road racer girly men and poseurs who are so bored they gotta find something to pretend they're being oppressed by.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Yep, not an engine builder, do I get any points for being an engine destroyer? IMO, if you have to spend $1000 on a new used motor and your choice is 140hp 4cyl or a 190hp 6cyl, the choice is easy in my eyes. If keeping to stock parts, both would be equipped with a small case rear differential with a 4.44 ratio. Anything higher than that costs and arm and a leg...and was why I went to the supra diff....but with the torque of the 6cyl, that was not a smart move on my part.

I've gone down the other road of waking up a 4-cyl. First you try the N/A stuff like intake and exhaust, and that's satisfying for about 3 miles. I have buddies who then went to fancier gearboxes, that lasts a bit longer because it is satisfying ripping gears faster...but eventually you start looking into forced induction and open up that huge worm hole. Is it smart...nope, but it's what most of us tinkerers do.

Sure there are some downfalls of the BMW inline 6s, but for giggles per dollar or smiles per mile, the torque and sidewaysness of a stock 6cyl and a readily available rear end is hard to beat. Besides...how much did that R2 cost with all its fancy bits? Remember that Ramana ran Derik's M3 which beat the newer faster turbo R2 and I'd bet that cost less than half of the Ford. We can nitpick all day long and into next month and miss the next rally as for sure there are some stages that favor one car over another.

If the guy has a hole in his block and needs a new motor, the inline 6 is the cheapest way to get on stage with about 200hp. The only downside really is the extra 100 lbs over the front end...which is easily dealt with using a set of the 40s or 50s you make...and with the money saved by not building a rip snorting M44, he'll even have $$ to buy some shocks.

Speaking of, the 50s arrived and look great, did some test fitting and now have some Swift 300# 2.5" barrel springs on order - going to be a slick little package!

Dave

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DaveK
Yep, not an engine builder, do I get any points for being an engine destroyer? IMO, if you have to spend $1000 on a new used motor and your choice is 140hp 4cyl or a 190hp 6cyl, the choice is easy in my eyes. If keeping to stock parts, both would be equipped with a small case rear differential with a 4.44 ratio. Anything higher than that costs and arm and a leg...and was why I went to the supra diff....but with the torque of the 6cyl, that was not a smart move on my part.

I've gone down the other road of waking up a 4-cyl. First you try the N/A stuff like intake and exhaust, and that's satisfying for about 3 miles. I have buddies who then went to fancier gearboxes, that lasts a bit longer because it is satisfying ripping gears faster...but eventually you start looking into forced induction and open up that huge worm hole. Is it smart...nope, but it's what most of us tinkerers do.

Sure there are some downfalls of the BMW inline 6s, but for giggles per dollar or smiles per mile, the torque and sidewaysness of a stock 6cyl and a readily available rear end is hard to beat. Besides...how much did that R2 cost with all its fancy bits? Remember that Ramana ran Derik's M3 which beat the newer faster turbo R2 and I'd bet that cost less than half of the Ford. We can nitpick all day long and into next month and miss the next rally as for sure there are some stages that favor one car over another.

If the guy has a hole in his block and needs a new motor, the inline 6 is the cheapest way to get on stage with about 200hp. The only downside really is the extra 100 lbs over the front end...which is easily dealt with using a set of the 40s or 50s you make...and with the money saved by not building a rip snorting M44, he'll even have $$ to buy some shocks.

Speaking of, the 50s arrived and look great, did some test fitting and now have some Swift 300# 2.5" barrel springs on order - going to be a slick little package!

Dave

Well show this guy what you gotz in the mail...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Well show this guy what you gotz in the mail...

Pics as soon as the springs arrive and they get bolted up to the car. Compact needs a bath too...looks like one of those "barn finds" that's been sitting for decades.

Have I also mentioned I'm not the guy you should ask about wiring/electrical stuff?

Dave

From those wise guys over in the for sale section:
http://rallyprep.co.uk/bmw-e30-duratec-powered-forest-rally-car/

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"We have developed a conversion package which allows the Ford Duratec (or Mazda derivative) engine to be used in the BMW E21 and E30 chassis respectively in either 2.0ltr or 2.5ltr format.

This superb engine is well proven in competition having been thoroughly developed by many specialist builders and offers an experience in the spirit of the original E30 M3 (high revving, and lightweight).

The engine is available in a wide range of specifications, with the entry level conversion gaining throttle bodies, management and a tubular exhaust manifold to provide around 190bhp. From there the options will depend upon the intended use of the vehicle, power requirements and budget, and we will ensure that every package is tailored to suit the customers specific needs. Ultimate specification engines produce in the region of 325bhp and are a cost effective alternative to the Millington Diamond.

Gearbox options include Mazda and Ford H-pattern with either standard helical or straight cut close ratio clusters, and five or six speed sequential units.

The combination of lightweight E21 or E30 shells, excellent independent suspension and the powerful and reliable Duratec motor makes for a very appealing and competitive package."

I wonder honestly what that big loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong six weighs?
I know what a Duratec weighs..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.