Pretty piccies of new Skoda S2000

The "race car kit porn" threads on clubGTI seem to show the same basic motorsports uprights for SEATs, Skodas, and VW, almost as if they are all sharing the same motorsport engineering/production.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Quote
Pete
The "race car kit porn" threads on clubGTI seem to show the same basic motorsports uprights for SEATs, Skodas, and VW, almost as if they are all sharing the same motorsport engineering/production.

How about you linmk to the piccies? Or copy and paste the piccies? Derp!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

yummy.


that intake manifold intrigues me.

Quote
Racinkid13
yummy.


that intake manifold intrigues me.

Dual plenum intake manifold, something Lehmann really seems to like doing, you'll see them on pretty much every engine they touch all the way back to the 20-valve Audi 5cyl rally engines.

http://www.bufkinengineering.com/intake%20manifolds.htm

John, I'll hunt down some piccies if you want. It's the big blocky looking uprights with the steering arm bolting to a caliper mount so the same upright can be used on both sides of the car and steering arm height changed for bumpsteer depending on the suspension geometry (touring car, rally car, other?)

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
Pete
The "race car kit porn" threads on clubGTI seem to show the same basic motorsports uprights for SEATs, Skodas, and VW, almost as if they are all sharing the same motorsport engineering/production.

How about you linmk to the piccies? Or copy and paste the piccies? Derp!

Pete, I've seen a few folk on here linking back to that forum. It used to be really good on the techy stuff and I was on there a lot because of that, but it has gone downhill lately and various contributors have left.

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Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

Hi All, I got a message from Danny and I'm sure I can add bits and pieces of interest to this thread and others. I've been into VWs for 20 years and my main knowledge is the motorsport side.

I have a couple of linked sites (www.vwmotorsport.info & www.seatsport.info) which have hosted information on works rallying (the sites need a refurb), as well as a wider interest in other rallying makes. Hopefully I can add to discussions here.

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Andrew_Frick
There has to be some relation the rally effort as well as VW campaigned a Skoda Fabia S2000 for a year before bringing back the WRC Polo. I think this car is similar in closeness to the Polo WRC car as the S2000 Fiestas are to the WRC ones. Different rule book but lots of the same ideas and parts, that share a similar design but may have lower cost materials.

The Skoda Fabia S2000 preceded the Polo WRC by some years. The first Polo WRC was prototyped c. 2011 using Fabia S2000 parts conspicuously, and used the same Skoda hubs, before VW evolved it and changed the brake caliper positioning:




They didn't hide the fact and VW were quite open about what it was:




Post-prototype:





A lot of the parts on the 80+ Skoda Fabia S2000s made to date are/were made by Zitka Motorsport (www.zitka-motorsport.cz/index_eng.htm). Volkswagen use CP Autosport a lot (www.cp-autosport.com), which is/was Heggemann, who VW Motorsport have used for bodyshells and other fab work for some years, eg the Golf 4 Kitcar and Polo Super 1600 Kitcar.

The engineering team behind the cars may have seen some crossover, but the likelihood is an instruction from VW management came to get a crate of S2000 Fabia parts to prototype the Polo WRC. A team visit to Skoda or Skoda personnel to VW and the building of a car doubtless followed. From then on, VW will have taken the Polo WRC their own way, and involved CP Autosport, not Skoda / Zitka.

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Racinkid13
that intake manifold intrigues me.

It's iterated from to those used on the Seat Sport Toledo S2000 touring car, and carried across to the Seat Leon S2000 touring car.

The Skoda engine is made by Oreca in France, same as the touring car motors. They also supplied the same/similar engine for Seat's Leon touring car. EUR 50k a pop to customers!

---

Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here <

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
Pete
The "race car kit porn" threads on clubGTI seem to show the same basic motorsports uprights for SEATs, Skodas, and VW, almost as if they are all sharing the same motorsport engineering/production.

How about you linmk to the piccies? Or copy and paste the piccies? Derp!

Quote
Pete
John, I'll hunt down some piccies if you want. It's the big blocky looking uprights with the steering arm bolting to a caliper mount so the same upright can be used on both sides of the car and steering arm height changed for bumpsteer depending on the suspension geometry (touring car, rally car, other?)

Pete, the various hubs you refer to on the porn thread will relate to Mk3 Golf Group A -> Kitcar, Mk4 Golf Kitcar, Seat Leon S2000 Touring car and perhaps a few more. These are from different outfits, as far adrift as SBG (UK), Seat Sport in Spain and likely Heggeman for the Mk4 Golf.

I think these are the reversible ones I think you're referring to, which are SBG-designed for the Mk3 Golf:






Obviously these pre-date the modern WRC / S2000 strut design with the lengthened & canted dampers.

---

Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here <

On a few of John's questions:

Quote
john vanlandingham
What engine powered the great Felicia which Stig Blomqvist drove to 3rd overall in the RAC 1996?
Bore? Stroke? rod length c-c?

The engine in the Felicia should be this one, the smallblock VW 8 valve engine, based on the cross-flow Polo 1400 / 1600 engine, with the inlet at the back:







I've no details on dimensions though.

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john vanlandingham
Who consulted on the gears in the 6 speed box? Who cut the gears?

I understood the 6 speed gearbox was an evolution of their old gearbox fastened to the Skoda-originated engine, with a bell housing adaptor. I can't recall who made it, but it is more than likely Czech origin again!

---

Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here <

Quote
Chris Eyre
On a few of John's questions:

Quote
john vanlandingham
What engine powered the great Felicia which Stig Blomqvist drove to 3rd overall in the RAC 1996?
Bore? Stroke? rod length c-c?

The engine in the Felicia should be this one, the smallblock VW 8 valve engine, based on the cross-flow Polo 1400 / 1600 engine, with the inlet at the back:







I've no details on dimensions though.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Who consulted on the gears in the 6 speed box? Who cut the gears?

I understood the 6 speed gearbox was an evolution of their old gearbox fastened to the Skoda originated engine, with a bell housing adaptor. I can't recall who made it, but it is more than likely Czech origin again!

Hi Chris, and welcome. If you come on Danny's recommendation, I'm glad to see you. (Pssst don't tell 'im so he won't get a fat head but he's alright... and pretty funny too and not a bad fab guy.. You met his dog? dat dog is also good at fabricating stuff. Seriouslky! I've senn piccies..)

So you win some bonus points...
Basically the ol 1600 8v in crossflow guise.

There were 101 or 102 turbo 4x4 cars entered that year.. Stig beat all but 2 in that little FWD 1600..

Oh and the box... Used to be Blomqvist and a friend of mine Ola Strömberg and another ex-Saab guy, Kalle Grundell , ran a shop together and when that went bust they went their way but they were friends and from same town....so I think it was Ola who got a deal to consult down in Czcho on the ratios, Blomqvist got a deal to do some rallies and tests, they flipped the gear cutting contract to Janne Sellholm who in Sala is not that far from Örebro. (130 km).
Keep it in the family..
This was all told on telephone calls with Ola and Stig, and with Sellholm's long term co-driver

Stig and co-driver to Janne both said ''top steed absolute.....140 km/hr.........but gawd dam does it get there quickly''

With regards to the possible commonality tween VW and Skoda, and supposed Germans being er uh errr well you know (they did TAKE the Skoda works once time before-----Skoda works making a supposedly pretty good howitzer, an OK tank, a good truck, guns etc, took it along with or some say took Sudetenland becasue of Skoda works) , the engineer guy I know at Skoda mainline who volunteers with the team was pointing out to guys about the non-interchange of tons of S2000 things vs the "Dubya Aresey" (WRC) cars because things are sized for the torque a S2000 n.a. motor makes---round 192 ft/lbs--vs the torque of the WRC turbo motors. he pointed out : gearbox, CV, axle shafts hubs, bearings uprights, brakes, basically everything...
Skoda has been making S2000 cars, VW making WRC cars, not a ton of interchange on the things that make a rally car a rally car....
And my point of their history all the way back to the 70, but particularly with the old 130 Super Estelle with the little (Renault descended) 1300 was is they are quite competent on their own---and looking at the relative sizes of the parent corporations, the tiny Skoda team did arguably a lot better over time than VW...That's looking at it from the angle--"He who does the mostest with the leastest".
And by that measure little Skoda has done gigantic results. While VW until this year, has done quite modest results..
Several people in the trade including ex-WRC driver Pentti Arikala has emphatically agreed that the difference is in the cultures of the 2 places...Czechs making do pretty damn good with what they have, the Germans with big plans to conquer the world..
And we've seen how that worked last time...

(whatever you do.............don't mention the war!)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Thanks for the Skoda information.

Wonder if they will do a TDI version?

---

Ask, listen-read, research, learn, weigh, execute, then let er rip

2 quick über super mega noob questions

1. The axles don't seem to have a 90 degree angle at the ride height...the gearbox is lower than the wheels. Are most cars like that, or is it a S2000/WRC thing for more travel, or is it because its tarmac spec? Wouldn't that stress the axles? Would it stress normal peasant axles but not master race WRC kit?

2. Is the reason WRC cars have that cool widebody to package such a large strut and reduce the CV angle? It never made sense to me why WRC cars are wide-body since aren't FIA rally cars restricted on tire sizes anyway?

Thx

Quote
LexusFman
2 quick über super mega noob questions

1. The axles don't seem to have a 90 degree angle at the ride height...the gearbox is lower than the wheels. Are most cars like that, or is it a S2000/WRC thing for more travel, or is it because its tarmac spec? Wouldn't that stress the axles? Would it stress normal peasant axles but not master race WRC kit?

2. Is the reason WRC cars have that cool widebody to package such a large strut and reduce the CV angle? It never made sense to me why WRC cars are wide-body since aren't FIA rally cars restricted on tire sizes anyway?

Thx

The widebody reasons are several. On the modern era (mid 90's+) the widebodies started in the F2 kit car categories circa 94/95. The reason was, they needed to stuff the 225x18" tires in cars that came originally with 165-65-13. Look at the back wheel well of a peugeot 106, 306, a clio, etc... and see that there's only about 4 inches of room between the fender and the inner body to fit a shock and a tire. The front is about the same, you have a strut which is even wider because it accommodates a spring around it. On top of that, if you put a 25" tire (2-3 inches bigger), its going to rub everywhere as soon as you turn the wheel a little bit.

Another reason was the obvious wider stance, which can reduce roll without the increase in roll resistance by means of springs or bars, keeping the car soft and grippy.

For the WRC cars it started in 97 and it was for similar reasons, the previous GrA cars had the wheels and tires SUTFFED in there, and due to that travel was very limited.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Hi Chris, and welcome. If you come on Danny's recommendation, I'm glad to see you. (Pssst don't tell 'im so he won't get a fat head but he's alright... and pretty funny too and not a bad fab guy.. You met his dog? dat dog is also good at fabricating stuff. Seriouslky! I've senn piccies..)

Thanks John and I'm admittedly late on replying. Tried to give time for replies and then got distracted!

There's more: had you heard about the cat which can jet a carb? :p

Quote
john vanlandingham
So you win some bonus points...
Basically the ol 1600 8v in crossflow guise.

There were 101 or 102 turbo 4x4 cars entered that year.. Stig beat all but 2 in that little FWD 1600..

Oh and the box... Used to be Blomqvist and a friend of mine Ola Strömberg and another ex-Saab guy, Kalle Grundell , ran a shop together and when that went bust they went their way but they were friends and from same town....so I think it was Ola who got a deal to consult down in Czcho on the ratios, Blomqvist got a deal to do some rallies and tests, they flipped the gear cutting contract to Janne Sellholm who in Sala is not that far from Örebro. (130 km).
Keep it in the family..
This was all told on telephone calls with Ola and Stig, and with Sellholm's long term co-driver

Stig and co-driver to Janne both said ''top steed absolute.....140 km/hr.........but gawd dam does it get there quickly''

The 1996 year with the Skoda Felcia kitcar was pretty convincing. It's the 1996 Network Q you're thinking of, but that round wasn't a counter for the WRC and was only an F2 round, with Armin Schwartz entered to pull a cheap win and the bigger guns not there. Skoda still impressive, the car was good and the Stig, always!

http://www.ewrc-results.com/final.php?e=495

Thanks for that Sellholm tip. I've have a dig around to see if I have anything more. I did look at buying an old Felicia Group A box in the late '90s, but no sign of the notes I made... Rikard Eliasson is the only contact I have note of.

Quote
john vanlandingham
With regards to the possible commonality tween VW and Skoda, and supposed Germans being er uh errr well you know (they did TAKE the Skoda works once time before-----Skoda works making a supposedly pretty good howitzer, an OK tank, a good truck, guns etc, took it along with or some say took Sudetenland becasue of Skoda works) , the engineer guy I know at Skoda mainline who volunteers with the team was pointing out to guys about the non-interchange of tons of S2000 things vs the "Dubya Aresey" (WRC) cars because things are sized for the torque a S2000 n.a. motor makes---round 192 ft/lbs--vs the torque of the WRC turbo motors. he pointed out : gearbox, CV, axle shafts hubs, bearings uprights, brakes, basically everything...
Skoda has been making S2000 cars, VW making WRC cars, not a ton of interchange on the things that make a rally car a rally car....

The S2000 origins are just the start point really. I spent 2 days on and off picking my way round the prototype Polo WRC and a real one at the Goodwood Festival of Speed 2013, and they had systematically changed a lot of the car, but they went initial testing with the Zero car, with a non-WRC turbo engine, outwardly a road-going TFSI engine from 1 underbonnet shot and the cast iron block that a decent nosey camera on full exposure can pick up!

Quote
john vanlandingham
And my point of their history all the way back to the 70, but particularly with the old 130 Super Estelle with the little (Renault descended) 1300 was is they are quite competent on their own---and looking at the relative sizes of the parent corporations, the tiny Skoda team did arguably a lot better over time than VW...That's looking at it from the angle--"He who does the mostest with the leastest".
And by that measure little Skoda has done gigantic results. While VW until this year, has done quite modest results..
Several people in the trade including ex-WRC driver Pentti Arikala has emphatically agreed that the difference is in the cultures of the 2 places...Czechs making do pretty damn good with what they have, the Germans with big plans to conquer the world..
And we've seen how that worked last time...

I guess the main difference between the two marque rally records there are the classes and the actual effort, Skoda serially delving in the lesser-supported lower capacities, versus VW dipping in and out with cars which weren't necessarily competitive?

Volkswagen have had two main punts on the WRC. The A2 Golf Rallye was an ill-thought top WRC Group A class idea, trying to take on the world with 8-valves and a supercharger, plus an unconvincing gearkit.

The Golf A59 never got past a prototype before the boss arrived to stick a lid on the wanton expenditure.

Prior to then, their Group 2 campaigns were never full commitments, plus the Group A era more so, though the A2 FWD was 200cc short of class limits.

Quote
john vanlandingham
(whatever you do.............don't mention the war!)

I'm forgetting which war! We're about to drop £3bn somewhere! Apparently it's a good idea. I beg to differ !

---

Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here <

Quote
Chris Eyre

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
Chris Eyre

Quote
john vanlandingham
Who consulted on the gears in the 6 speed box? Who cut the gears?

I understood the 6 speed gearbox was an evolution of their old gearbox fastened to the Skoda originated engine, with a bell housing adaptor. I can't recall who made it, but it is more than likely Czech origin again!

Oh and the box... Used to be Blomqvist and a friend of mine Ola Strömberg and another ex-Saab guy, Kalle Grundell , ran a shop together and when that went bust they went their way but they were friends and from same town....so I think it was Ola who got a deal to consult down in Czcho on the ratios, Blomqvist got a deal to do some rallies and tests, they flipped the gear cutting contract to Janne Sellholm who in Sala is not that far from Örebro. (130 km).
Keep it in the family..

Thanks for that Sellholm tip. I've have a dig around to see if I have anything more. I did look at buying an old Felicia Group A box in the late '90s, but no sign of the notes I made... Rikard Eliasson is the only contact I have note of.

My filing system works.... eventually...!

It was a Steve Wedgbury gearbox for sale in 2001 - reasonably well known UK Skoda driver, who had a drive of a sanctioned car if my memory serves me.

4.5 final drive, and apparently it was "the old ZF box they used in the Favorit."

- copied by the "Skoda factory" (... for which we can read "Sellholm" ?) and used a bellhousing adaptor plate to fit the VW engine in the Group A Felicia and also the Kit Car.

---

Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here <