Ouch... Evo crash from Finland

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Reamer
I see his point yet I like the cage rules the way they are. The cage is about the cheapest part about a rally build. Even Jvab super bitchen suspenders cost more then a well built RA,Nasa and Cars cage.

Maybe if you're building the cage yourself and don't consider your time worth money. A good cage in locally will set you back about $3500 if you know the right people whereas that same cage from a road race shop (which many people use) might set you back closer to $6000. I've ordered multiple sets of JVAB stuff and have yet to be anywhere near the $3k mark.

The only weirdness I remember running into with cage stuff was back from when I was thinking about using homologated pre-fab cages on an older chassis. Memory is a bit fuzzy now, but I thought one of the sanctioning bodies didn't like the idea and the other one was ok with it. Since you never know when you might need to sell a car, being able to sell as fully legal anywhere in the US was important to me, so I scrapped the Custom Cages route and had it built locally.

Dave

I'm still not knowing either...JV would bitch about a free BJ if he wasn't giving it...


Once again 'we' require a basic 6pt cage like in the old days..is that ok? We require a sill bar and a door bar, alternately an X. We require an X in the main hoop, 3 variations of roof bars, an A pillar support and in one instance two bars added into the backstays. Every sanctioning body requires the same basic design.

Simple design, only a couple added elements from the old days, basically straight elements and easily added. 253 is easy to understand, easy for scrutineers to learn, easy for builders to do and doesn't require people not qualified to make engineering decisions.

My email is full of pics and emails from people building NRS and RA cages and I get questions from people doping other stuff like Targa and road racing (those I pass off of course). I've never had anyone raise hell over the basic design. All confusion has been when they get 'creative' or just flat misread a rule.

Nothing in 253 is difficult, expensive or prohibitive for the very average builder. We don't require seam welding, strut towers tied in or 50mm inverted struts. There is no real difference between an X in the main and a diagonal in the main and one in the backstays. There is just nothing there to get all ranted up about , you don't build cages, aren't building a car and just look for any reason to try and poison new people with your political crap. There are 3 major sanctioning bodies in US and Canada with a very similar ruleset. Be done with it, quit screwing up every thread with your shit, please.

I started building cages (NASCAR) full frame, tube frame race cars in the 70's, moved into road race and rally stuff in the 80's. While rally did run a lesser standard back then, we also ran slower cars and typically much lighter cars...and we killed people. All things progress and evolve. The average quality of todays build is light years beyond the old days, much of that due to the internet. The majority of builders far exceed our minimum standards voluntarily. The workmanship gets better all the time.

So copy and paste this up yer ass.....

We don't require 50mm inverted struts, we don't require one off brakes, we don't require hand made knuckles or Supra diffs. We (all of us) require some basic safety equipment , even that doesn't meet many racing bodies rules. Stop with the constant nonsensical bitching, do what you do, quit running off new people, quit running off existing people , quit trying to run off old people. The world is accroding to garp..not JVAB.

My apologies to the audience...


SO..looks like he even ripped the outer door skins off that EVO, crapski. I never managed to do that.

To understand the rule, you really have to understand what 'Homologated' means, in context.

Honestly, I had originally read this as the date the specific car was built, not the date the model was approved. But, I decided to have a look at the defintion in Appendix J:

2.1.7) Homologation :
C'est la constatation officielle faite par la FIA qu'un modèle de voiture déterminé est construit en
série suffisante pour être classé dans les Voitures de Production (Groupe N), Voitures de Tourisme
(Groupe A), du présent règlement.
La demande d'homologation doit être présentée à la FIA par l'ASN du pays de construction du véhicule et donner lieu à l'établissement d'une fiche d'homologation (voir ci-après).
Elle doit être faite en conformité avec un règlement spécial dit "Règlement d'Homologation" établi par la FIA.
--->Toute homologation d'un modèle construit en série devient caduque 7 ans après l'abandon définitif de la construction en série du dit modèle<--- (production annuelle inférieure à 10 % du minimum
de production du groupe considéré).
L'homologation d'un modèle ne peut être valable que dans un seul groupe, Voitures de Production (Groupe N) / Voitures de Tourisme (Groupe A).

2.1.7) Homologation:
Is the official certification made by the FIA that a minimum number of cars of a specific model has been made on series-production terms to justify classification in Production Cars (Group N), Touring
Cars (Group A), of these regulations.
Application for homologation shall be submitted to the FIA by the ASN of the country in which the vehicle is manufactured and shall entail the drawing up of a homologation form (see below).
It must be established in accordance with the special regulations called "Homologation Regulations", laid down by the FIA.
--->Homologation of a series-produced car will become null and void 7 years after the date on which the series-production of the said model has been stopped<--- (series-production under 10 % of the
minimum production of the group considered).
The homologation of a model can only be valid in one group, Production Cars (Group N) / Touring Cars (Group A).

I take that to mean that any car who's homologation is more than 7 years out of date doesn't exist in the eyes of the ruleset. That only feeds the interpretation that the allowances for 'pre-2002' designs are referenced is for the grandfathering of existing cars, not for application on new builds of older cars.

If you want to talk about 'common sense' application of rules, wouldn't the most common sense approach be: 'We've got new safety standards, so if you're starting a build now you have to use the new standard; if you have a car that is already built to the old standards we won't make you change it.'

If some federations have then extended the grandfathering to 'new' builds, that's really a different issue. Reading the FIA regulations as allowing it is pretty optimistic.

Besides which, the 'prohibitive' extra cost is really no more than ~20' of material, 7 cuts, 14 or so notches, and 12 linear feet of welding. The cost of a 258.8 compliant cage around these parts today is about $1500 more than what I paid for a pre 253.8 cage in 2003 and much of that is thanks to a spike in the cost of steel. If you're calling that a barrier to to the sport, you're looking for places to lay blame for other issues and not really being honest* about what the barriers are.
(*honest with yourself in reflection on the real issues, not making any comment about 'dishonesty' or deceptive motivation.)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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john vanlandingham
This means for many people---_{more out here where we are smart enough not to destroy our infrastructure and cars and lakes with tons of salt-}---and where we have large portions of the entries being cars FIRST HOMOLOGATED 2002 and EARLIER,

that many people have had to pay significantly higher cost for the far more complex cages which RA, CARS, and NASA have come to claim the FIA rules "require"..

I think it's hard to believe that someone decided NOT to build a rally car because they couldn't build a pre-2002 homologated car with the old cage design, and the cost of a few extra bars put them over the top with their budget.

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john vanlandingham
missing the point that it is legal someplace with

So is marriage at 12, murder, incest, and worse.

There is nothing tough about roll cage rules. The biggest expenses come from wanting fancy shit. Bent V door bars to make an X will cost you at least an extra $500 at my shop. More fab time and a bunch of extra gussets and weld time required. Want it tied to front strut towers? That's another $500. Bring me a car with full interior and dash and sound deadening and you'll be paying us $75 an hour (which is a deal when you consider three guys typically working on removing that shit). Bring me a stripped shell and want the min legal roll cage and you'll pay less than a set of JVAB 50s.

---

Grant Hughes

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NoCoast

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john vanlandingham
missing the point that it is legal someplace with

Bring me a stripped shell and want the min legal roll cage and you'll pay less than a set of JVAB 50s.

keeping you in the "Rolodex" forever ! that's really good to know.

I'm a programmer so i can usually follow long streams of "If, not is, else, than" and come up with the correct conclusion ... still not a fan of rule books with hard to understand wording though.

I never read the FIA stuff cause i paid someone to build my cage. having not read the rules , if it does actually state that the extra cage bars are only for cars homologated after 01 (02+) so by that Logic, a 2002 WRX needs the extra bars while a slightly heavier 2002 legacy GT does not. (even though both have the same motor and turbo) .

so then my 1993 could have been built sans a few bars.. I don't think that's what is lower participation.


the factors lowering participation are very easy to understand.
we are at a Historical low for participation in the work force 54% (a 30 year low!!)
wage deflation (when looking at income vs inflation)
near complete loss of good jobs for the uneducated. (in the 80s you could walk out of high school and get a job at a steel mill and make enough to start a rally hobby) Try that today !!!
we are near an all time high for income disparity (2nd only to the 1920s)
shrinking middle class (and upper middle class)
greater debt servitude .

So what we have is
18-28 year olds with out a higher education , who would be lucky to get 40 hours a week at minimum wage
18-28 year olds with crushing student debt, with almost no job prospects in their fields
29-39 year olds very tight job market - wage deflation, greatly increased cost of living
40-49 year olds - most who got whacked by the housing bubble , and some the .com crash too
50-60 year olds - tight job market flooded by college kids , need to retire soon too old to start an expensive hobby.


I'm constantly shocked that we are still getting new teams at almost every rally to be very honest.

rally as a hobby, for the driver, is a bare minimum $2k a year, but more likely 4-10k for someone who does a few rallies a year.
pre tax Median income is $53,046 hard to take out 10% of your yearly income for your hobby if you have a family.

... also life at the bottom has never been better. 100s of tv channels, internet on your phone so you can blog while you take a dump.

means that people who used to volunteer cause it was better than being bored at home. now stay at home because 100s of cat videos is better than standing in the woods.

But as long as humans drive cars, they will want to drive them fast. and some will want 'real roads' and always find rally. I think


long , pointless , ranting posts will save rally!

I guess I read between the lines to much. New as in new build not new car. I also didnt know i was refering to a fia cage. I thought i was saying a well built cage for less then jvab. Jvab for subie is im guessing around $2500 the last car I caged for a costumer who also bought jvab for his new rally ride paid me $2500. Thats a wash in my eyes. Also had double v's and tied into strut towers.

How are you making your v's? Mine require less weld less notching and the same amount of gussets. I guess you can spend more time at the bender or more time at the notcher. Up to the builder.

I also need to raise my rates now. I work for $50 an hour. I figure 40 hrs for a cage plus $500 in materials. Im not a road course cage builder thow so maybe I will start saying I am and raise prices even higher. It is tough to get rich off 1 or 2 builds a year as it is! Or I could keep barely scraping by build a nice cage for a new rally member in our tiny little comunity!

I do like my new car. Thow it is heavy. 3130lbs have over 10"s of head room lots of leg room and I dont feel like im crowding the navi.

---

First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Quote
Reamer
How are you making your v's? Mine require less weld less notching and the same amount of gussets. I guess you can spend more time at the bender or more time at the notcher. Up to the builder.

I also need to raise my rates now. I work for $50 an hour. I figure 40 hrs for a cage plus $500 in materials. Im not a road course cage builder thow so maybe I will start saying I am and raise prices even higher. It is tough to get rich off 1 or 2 builds a year as it is!

I'm talking about a V style X versus a single angled bar (NO X). I won't do intersecting X doors typically and only offer a single bar or bent V X bars. So you have a few feet of material and 8 additional gussets (2 door and 2 a-pillar per side) if you want the X.

$75 an hour is three guys so breaks down to $25 an hour per person essentially. And I have yet to not shame someone into doing all that shit themselves anyhow. 40 hours to build a cage could be equivalent to 80 log hours at the right shop with a decent mechanic. We bill hourly on remedial work that ANYONE can do (removing seats, carpet, trim, etc). Flat rate on cages and price is mostly based on what I think is fair without being too little for us to make to have it suck. I've had a car that is tentatively sold that needs a cage that we have hardly worked on for months even though it's fully ready for the cage. New owner hasn't put a deposit down or asked about progress so motivation to work on it has been kinda low.

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Grant Hughes

Let's see...
Bobby asked who sold a pre-bent cage that would pass tech. Simple.
JV linked a cage in Europe that will not pass tech. Simple.
I noted the cage would not pass tech in North America (no growling or name calling). Simple.

So JV deliberately pointed a potential competitor in a wrong direction and I nicely(neutrally) pointed that out. Get over yourself John. The thread is there and intact to read..again...

Homolgated cars and cages are allowed per 253. When homolgation runs out we still allow existing cars to keep running (with rare exception). Seems fair. Cages kits lose their homolgation when the car does. Simple. Nothing for anyone, especially JV to get fussy about.

RA has decided to use the 253 template (for home built cages) as the minimum standard for all builds. As several have noted it is a pretty common sense design. NRS is very similar with a couple small deviations. No big deal.

I can't see anyone thinking it makes sense for new construction to allow say a 2002 Impreza be built to a different standard than a 2003 Impreza. That does not make any sense nor is the cost any real difference. Rarely does a competitor build a min spec cage and as Keith noted the additional cost is quite small. You have to have a cage and it will cost whatever the market bears in that area. If the cost is too high then rally isn't a good option for that person.

John spends countless hours mouthing off about how to build the ultimate WRC spec Volvo that will be undefeatable (except in sucky US hands) yet somehow thinks a standard 253 cage is cost or talent prohibitive. No. Maybe the very brokest competitor should spend money on a good cage, new tires and save a few bucks by not buying 50mm JVABS?

Our cage rules are a minimum, easily understood design..not claimed to be be FIA spec either, just influenced. They are not going get retroed nor is there any compelling reason to. I personally issue log books for RA and NRS and have not had any big issue with people trying to build cheap assed cages for their cheap assed old cars, just haven't. Most overbuild as mentioned previously.

So really a non-issue just JV bitching again. Seems like there must be a better use of time.

Okay I get the diff now. one single angle bar verse x. Guess I was thinking x because there rare to see just 1 single door bar around me.

Just doesnt seem like there is much profit in doing cages. I do them more for the sport then to get rich. Also why i cant see the cage really being the reasoning to not rally..

Back on topic that was one heck of a ride. Im not sure a co driver would of done him any good in that wreck. well maybe a good codriver with good recce.

---

First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

I see making your own rollcage about on the same level as making your own pair of pants: with a fair amount of fussing around you can probably do it, but how are you going to look if it fails?

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alkun
I see making your own rollcage about on the same level as making your own pair of pants: with a fair amount of fussing around you can probably do it, but how are you going to look if it fails?

Priceless ^^^^^^^

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heymagic

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alkun
I see making your own rollcage about on the same level as making your own pair of pants: with a fair amount of fussing around you can probably do it, but how are you going to look if it fails?

Priceless ^^^^^^^

LOL doesn't matter who made the pants if you keep trying to squeeze into em and blow the seam.