OL vs G5

Just curious as to what people think is a better/faster platform. There's always talk of lumping all of 2wd together, but I was thinking g5 and OL cars might actually be on very similar footing in terms of speed.

I'm talking north american rally, not WRC S2000 cars which would be considered open light. Say for example a midly hopped up 2.5 rs, with good ratios, vs a higher HP car like greenhouses neon or brandenburgs bmw.

All about the driver.

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MConte05
All about the driver.

So... we should have classes based not on the car but the driver? :p

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Runamuck Rally

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MConte05
All about the driver.

Not really the point of the question. You could swap me and higgins cars and it would still be 'all about the driver'.

I like open light for the competition! 2wd for the driving fun.

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Grant Hughes

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czwalga
Just curious as to what people think is a better/faster platform. There's always talk of lumping all of 2wd together, but I was thinking g5 and OL cars might actually be on very similar footing in terms of speed.

I'm talking north american rally, not WRC S2000 cars which would be considered open light. Say for example a midly hopped up 2.5 rs, with good ratios, vs a higher HP car like greenhouses neon or brandenburgs bmw.

If you are just talking numbers, a well built G5 car should beat a OL car at most US rallies. H.P. rules for most of our roads.

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johnhuebbe

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czwalga
Just curious as to what people think is a better/faster platform. There's always talk of lumping all of 2wd together, but I was thinking g5 and OL cars might actually be on very similar footing in terms of speed.

I'm talking north american rally, not WRC S2000 cars which would be considered open light. Say for example a midly hopped up 2.5 rs, with good ratios, vs a higher HP car like greenhouses neon or brandenburgs bmw.

If you are just talking numbers, a well built G5 car should beat a OL car at most US rallies. H.P. rules for most of our roads.

If that's truly the case then I'm not sure the argument for lumping G5 and G2 cars together. G5 and OL cars would be closer in performance and no one would consider putting OL and G2 together. Sure its easy to classify just 2wd, but performance should be the criteria for creating classes.

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czwalga

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johnhuebbe

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czwalga
Just curious as to what people think is a better/faster platform. There's always talk of lumping all of 2wd together, but I was thinking g5 and OL cars might actually be on very similar footing in terms of speed.

I'm talking north american rally, not WRC S2000 cars which would be considered open light. Say for example a midly hopped up 2.5 rs, with good ratios, vs a higher HP car like greenhouses neon or brandenburgs bmw.

If you are just talking numbers, a well built G5 car should beat a OL car at most US rallies. H.P. rules for most of our roads.

If that's truly the case then I'm not sure the argument for lumping G5 and G2 cars together. G5 and OL cars would be closer in performance and no one would consider putting OL and G2 together. Sure its easy to classify just 2wd, but performance should be the criteria for creating classes.

I am confuse.
Easiest is to review the facotrs that make a car go--compare and contrast.

1)Engine size
a) total dynamic compression
i) n.a
ii) turbo

2) weight of vehicle

3) torque multiplication
a) gearbox
b) final drive

4) grip
a) 2wd
b) 4wd


Make 3 columns--I can't do the formatting bullshit
see what "cancels out" and then what's left

Cuts thru a lotta bullshit...

THEN think about what realistically can be changed--by a normal human, not a Trustafarian,
and how that potentially changes things..

Example 2.5 Subaru class aka Rally Lite.
2.5 motor sumpin sumpin for compression = xxx ft/lbs of torques

actual final drive available..............4.4
Weight zzzz lbs
AWD
vs

say
Brand X 2300 with turbo = 275 ft/lbs
final drive 4.3
weight 2650
2wd


vs
2.0 with 10:1 dynamic comp and 150 ft/lbs and 190 hp @ 7300
final drive (overall in 4th) 5.1
weight 2400
2wd


Just as real world examples. See can talk comparisons without something other than subjective impressions.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Add in the fact you lose even more power thru the drive train of an AWD car.

There is a limit to the potential of OL, NA Sube will only go so far and failure is imminent.

G5 at anything near very mild should be a faster platform over the course of a year. Snow rallies may favor the AWD obviously or very muddy events.

Any of Johns "formula" cars in G2 or G5 should pretty much trash any OL car. If not then it is the driver, not the platform.

If I were looking for over the year results I would build a high revving G2 or a V6 G5 car. OL is fine, not for me, but a good class for those wanting the AWD crutch or looking to move to SP or Open.

Yeah ft/lbs x gearing x weight is the basic thing...
A Pipo-moteur current S2000 thing making 275 hp makes almost exactly 193 ft/lbs of torque..
They go like stink, sound super wicked.
Cost $35,000

A stock Xratty 2300 POS iron ol thing costs nothing, comes in the car for whatever you got the car for.
Make 195 ft/lbs..sounds harsh and thrashy...goes like stink


And as for snow--you can't put down very much power in any case.....after getting stomped silly in 2 Canajian Nationals on snow and mainly ICE!!!! arrrgh! by guys I anilhilated by 30+ minutes 6 month earlier in a US summer National----obviously configuration is not the central thing--2wd vs 4wd vs FWD vs RWD...
Experience and experience not making huge fuck ups...

Now I have said this before and it bears recalling:
1996 RAC WRC round was a Driver's only round...Won by Armin Schwartz in a Celica ST205

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1996 WRC 2 litre qualifier only. Ice and snow cover many stages. Schwarz wins for Toyota. 50 year old Blomqvist third in 2WD, 1600cc Škoda Felicia - 25 years after he first won the event in a Saab 96 V4. SEAT win WRC F2 title.

Couple of years later I was buying 4 used (magnesium bodied, water cooled, long Bilstein thangs) shocks from him and I brought up this..
There were 199 entries, 500 km /310 miles of SS, 1800 km total
102 of the entries were turbo 2.0 4wd Group A or Group N cars.
Blomqvist beat all but one..

I said "pretty damn good!
He said " nääääääää, It was all snow.....there's no advantage (they ran unstudded as per UK rules) of turbo 4wd there...you can only put down so much power..."

Maybe Blomqvist is insane, maybe not.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Towona

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MConte05
All about the driver.

So... we should have classes based not on the car but the driver? :p

That's how we did it in the NW region at the Divisional level for years. Three classes: Expert, Experienced, and Novice.

Open Light is fun because there are usually a buncha guys running them. I have three close friends with them and another building and another considering. I've thought about building one so I can race against my friends. BUT...
RWD is way more fun in my experience. They both are fun, but once you click a bit with RWD you are all smiles. Prep costs equivalent you could have a RWD car with 50-100% more power. Which could also mean more tires and more trouble in the neighborhood. Sorry neighbors!
A Group 5 car should be faster than any Open Light car.

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Grant Hughes

So why the talk of lumping all of 2wd together and OL gets left out of that conversation. Yeah its easy to say 2wd duh... but for classes speed is all that matters in my opinion, doesnt matter how you get there. Where OL is closer to G5, and G2; than G2 and G5 are together.


I'm not advocating anything just stirring conversation.

I think there are a couple things in play. People see cars like Lane's Volvo or the old Hurst Mustang and blame the results on the car rather than the driver..it's the driver. So you get the old Gold Star for everyone syndrome. Points and championships are really a bit of a hook to give reason for people to keep coming back. More car classes, more points, more entries.

Second thing is with OL , that is a rather unique class, some people enter it because of RA restrictions on drivers. The cars in general just can't compete with Open on paper , real life says different at a regional level. A clever guy could get a Mitsu or Toyota option fabbed up that could fly. Heck even a Justy with a 2.5 transplant would be very surprising. I don't know how you would sell it being lumped with 2wd , the villagers would just scream.

We remember Derrik Nelson winning OA because it is a rare occurrence, but I don't remember the 2nd place 2wd car at either of those events.

I could see Open (any wheel drive, 32mm restrictors on AWD) OL and Spec B or P IF there were enough actual interest from factories. In reality we really could go back to the 2 or 3 driver classes of old. Us old guys all survived and had fun for the most part.

Motorcycle racing does classes based on experience, as well as age, and gender, and 2 vs 4 stroke, and engine size. More classes will save rally!

It get's a little crazy, and the format would not work for a stage rally.

Though I am a fan of classes based on experience and # of drive wheels.