Relative speed

It is a bit interesting to think about how it is best to look at relative speed.
In another thread we saw this comparison along with a suggestion that there wasn't a significant gap.
(I've culled some fluff from the original thread)

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SS1 .............Buffum 59.9mph----Sheppard...54.2,..... McC..47 mph, ......and woe is me...45.34
SS2 .............Buff.......62mph......Shepp....54.3....McC....48 mph....poor me...46.5
SS3 Spider Lake Long Buff.....50mph.... Shepp...40.3....McC...41mph.....and awww 39.2 NOTHING EVER
SS4 ........... Buff 52.2mph.................Shepp 50.6....McC 44.......dominating me at 42mph
SS5........... Buff 69.2mph..................Shepp 62.7..... McC 54.........and nothing at 51.3
SS6 (SS2 II) Buff ..65mph..................Shepp 58.........McC 49.9......and a miserable 47.1
SS7.............Buff 59.3mph.................Shepp......54......McC 47.7.....poor me .......44.9
SS8.............Buff 56.5mph.................Shepp .....50.7.....McC 44.8..........and (sigh) 42.3

For JVL and Gene, the average of all of those speeds is about 45 mph and 47 mph respectivelty. That's 2 mph, or about ~5%. Seems small when you look at it like this. But, over 2 hrs of racing time, it added up to a 6 minute gap.

It it one of the reasons I've always looked at Seconds per km (Sec per mile works too) as a good measure, the added bonus is you can look at your gaps, and the stage distance left, to see if it makes sense to push or not.

in this case, JVL was a touch over 3.7 sec per mile (2.7 sec per k) slower than Gene. During an event, the only time I start checking times with teams 2.7 sec/k slower is when we're having trouble.

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But one thing is clear: Your estimate of YOUR speed was grossly inflated.
Your conceit that you were miles and hours ahead...

He linked to the results that said he was six minutes plus ahead. Besides, if he was two miles an hour faster, and the rally was nearly two hours, he WOULD be about 4 miles ahead...

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

What was the original thread?

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

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Dazed_Driver
What was the original thread?

Not that important to this discussion. (but it was the 'this will save rally' thread.)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
It is a bit interesting to think about how it is best to look at relative speed.
In another thread we saw this comparison along with a suggestion that there wasn't a significant gap.
(I've culled some fluff from the original thread)

Quote

SS1 .............Buffum 59.9mph----Sheppard...54.2,..... McC..47 mph, ......and woe is me...45.34
SS2 .............Buff.......62mph......Shepp....54.3....McC....48 mph....poor me...46.5
SS3 Spider Lake Long Buff.....50mph.... Shepp...40.3....McC...41mph.....and awww 39.2 NOTHING EVER
SS4 ........... Buff 52.2mph.................Shepp 50.6....McC 44.......dominating me at 42mph
SS5........... Buff 69.2mph..................Shepp 62.7..... McC 54.........and nothing at 51.3
SS6 (SS2 II) Buff ..65mph..................Shepp 58.........McC 49.9......and a miserable 47.1
SS7.............Buff 59.3mph.................Shepp......54......McC 47.7.....poor me .......44.9
SS8.............Buff 56.5mph.................Shepp .....50.7.....McC 44.8..........and (sigh) 42.3

For JVL and Gene, the average of all of those speeds is about 45 mph and 47 mph respectivelty. That's 2 mph, or about ~5%. Seems small when you look at it like this. But, over 2 hrs of racing time, it added up to a 6 minute gap.

It it one of the reasons I've always looked at Seconds per km (Sec per mile works too) as a good measure, the added bonus is you can look at your gaps, and the stage distance left, to see if it makes sense to push or not.

in this case, JVL was a touch over 3.7 sec per mile (2.7 sec per k) slower than Gene. During an event, the only time I start checking times with teams 2.7 sec/k slower is when we're having trouble.

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But one thing is clear: Your estimate of YOUR speed was grossly inflated.
Your conceit that you were miles and hours ahead...

He linked to the results that said he was six minutes plus ahead. Besides, if he was two miles an hour faster, and the rally was nearly two hours, he WOULD be about 4 miles ahead...

He said Morison that "Buffum was probably averaging 60 mph, I was averaging 50 mph (and has bragged repeatedly here that he "dominated' when he was once active...) and you were averaging 40 mph"

he blabbed all this horseshit 28 years ago, too, same guess he was "average 10 mph faster than you" ..Interestingly a friend, Steve Roberts posited the same thing except he presumed Buffum was "about 3 or 4 mph average" faster.

Point is only that gene wats to discredit everything I say by rewriting history which we seen in his constantle repeated---and always out of any imaginable connection to anything=---- "You never did anything---you were slower than---presumably everybody now driving.

He was not on average 10 mph faster than I, he was 2.2mph average..
I congratulated him on his awesomeness..

Not that in those primitive days, figuring each person's average speed for each SS was difficult and time consuming but after every event some of us would sit down and crank out the numbers for every car and produce what the Froggie bastids call "Scratch" 1st thru last in order and we'd just note N or D for National and Divisional by the names for just comparison...no imaginary separation as we liked to say "because a guy checked a box off on an entry and plunked down extra money' which as the intermingled times show, was the case and still is.

Now Gene didn't then or now need to analyze anything, its all bullshit because he knows exactly what's up: he's 10 mph faster than me on average and about 10 average slower than Buffum----even if the math shows that's a fanciful dream--or delusion..
4.5 times the actual difference*..

and remembering back Buffum was often up to around 15 mph faster than Divisional winners..

Anyway, Gene didn't need to analyze anything then or now because he knows everything, but just starting out, myself and some of my loser "never did anything ever friends" needed something to measure by other than local heroes snarling "I'm sooooooooooooooooooooo much faster" and (seriously heard this "We're getting up there to the pace of the WRC was just a few years ago when they were in these cars",
or "He's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay faster"

The unit of measurement "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaY" didn't really give uis much to go on..didn't help us think "just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more and I'll do xx place"


And since 28 years ago we didn't have you around to correct every t and every i about everything at all connected in any way to rally---we did what we could..

And average miles an hour was what we came up with... I remember back when we were doing one of these events and we came up with the difference of only about 2.2 mph my friend---a real loser, never did anything ever, like me---said "Dayum I can think about 2.2 mph, that's conceivable---but Buffum and Millen --Egad! 15mph...forgettabouitit!"

I agree that as an analytic tool the second per mile/km is much better and when we first hear of it we started doing the calculations that way....

Much better really because the units were even "more comprehensible": I can count 1.5 or 3 seconds and the results are about how many seconds ( or H/M/s) difference.
No prizes for any MPH (or km/hr)

Now Morison is there actually a point to this or is it intended to be more troll lol lol-ing?

Was your point that analysis should be in s/mi or s/km difference?

Good point... great point

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I think he is simply highlighting that even a smaller overall average speed advantage can turn into a large time discrepancy. The large time discrepancy (without analysis) would seem to correlate to a large average speed differential... but it actually doesn't.

And once again you antagonistic piece of shit..the point wasn't ever to say you did nothing..the point was you weren't exactly rocket fast when starting out and have no business pissing on someone in a Bspec car, running in a very adverse conditioned event. Pretty simple. Quit going out of your way to be an asshole for once. The more proof that comes out the more you try and twist words and facts. You were never one of the fast guys in the PNW. You have for years greatly overstated your abilities and experience in a rally car. Doesn't mean you are inadequate or somehow unworthy. You are however quite bluntly a fucking know-it-all jerk with a very sketchy business back ground trying to milk a living off of rally. That about cover it? Not really but what is the point?

Now I did , for whatever reason, put 6 minutes on you in a 1973 510 (on Tokico shocks btw) in 8 stages and no one has yet disclosed the actual mileage, so the whole technical part is still up to question...and the question doesn't really matter does it? The 510 wasn't a terribly fast car although it had a couple overall wins (something you never had). The RX7 and Datsun 210 were both much faster. Both cars had plenty of wins as well as podiums ,,again you weren't part of that. So get over it. Long time ago. And I clearly stated the numbers were in question didn't I ??

No one should ever have to justify there reason for rallying, their speed (or lack of) , their income, level of expenditure or car choice to anyone other than themselves . We all do this for fun (the ones that do anything that is). You just do your level best to suck the fun out of it for people tho and when Mt.Hood gets no mention on this forum you should take a moment and ponder the migration of people to FB and Twitter.

How's that? Prolly didn't get enough swear words did I?

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HiTempguy
I think he is simply highlighting that even a smaller overall average speed advantage can turn into a large time discrepancy. The large time discrepancy (without analysis) would seem to correlate to a large average speed differential... but it actually doesn't.

Well duh, I guess...Anybody that has even done track racing ---in fields with deep and numerous participants---like 30-35 well match guys gives you ample time seeing how just a tiny difference is sometimes very hard to make up...and that a lot, possibly most of what results shows is how many blunders did each person made, and how soon did they catch the blunder--if they caught it..

I wonder if anybody looked at the times in last weeked before last at the closeness of the entire class
http://racingmaailma.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/F-CUP-YLEINEN.pdf

The thing I have often found interesting is just this thing we see in guys like Gene: such gross mis-perceptions by in this case 4.5 times error and yet the perception is so fixed..Nothing sways the preconceived notion: show him the average difference was 2.2 mph and he still says "Yeah about what I said" (which was 10 mph average)
Shows to me---as if I didn't know this 40 years ago---that personal perception is so untrustworthy that it is essentially really useless.
Especially when you have no broader measure/experience, or a fixed mind set..

And that leaves the clock...seconds...

(of course knowing the seconds per mile is nice, but knowing the difference doesn't tell you where the difference is happening, or why the difference is different and that makes rally harder to improve yourself in relative to doing laps--especially if you can do laps with people both "just a smidge better" but also with World Champion level guys occasionally...then you see where they're killing you)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
heymagic
And once again you antagonistic piece of shit..the point wasn't ever to say you did nothing..the point was you weren't exactly rocket fast when starting out and have no business pissing on someone in a Bspec car, running in a very adverse conditioned event. Pretty simple. Quit going out of your way to be an asshole for once. The more proof that comes out the more you try and twist words and facts. You were never one of the fast guys in the PNW. You have for years greatly overstated your abilities and experience in a rally car. Doesn't mean you are inadequate or somehow unworthy. You are however quite bluntly a fucking know-it-all jerk with a very sketchy business back ground trying to milk a living off of rally. That about cover it? Not really but what is the point?

Now I did , for whatever reason, put 6 minutes on you in a 1973 510 (on Tokico shocks btw) in 8 stages and no one has yet disclosed the actual mileage, so the whole technical part is still up to question...and the question doesn't really matter does it? The 510 wasn't a terribly fast car although it had a couple overall wins (something you never had). The RX7 and Datsun 210 were both much faster. Both cars had plenty of wins as well as podiums ,,again you weren't part of that. So get over it. Long time ago. And I clearly stated the numbers were in question didn't I ??

No one should ever have to justify there reason for rallying, their speed (or lack of) , their income, level of expenditure or car choice to anyone other than themselves . We all do this for fun (the ones that do anything that is). You just do your level best to suck the fun out of it for people tho and when Mt.Hood gets no mention on this forum you should take a moment and ponder the migration of people to FB and Twitter.

How's that? Prolly didn't get enough swear words did I?

I haven't greatly overstated mu result Gene Mr. a fraction quicker....You have endlessly said You didn't do anything.. And EVERYBODY IS SICK OF IT ASSHOLE, including me....
You are so full of your self and your monstrous dream that you were THE hot shit that its pitiful...
Doesn't matter how many times I say it YOU DID OK, then you quit....You won some stages, can't recall if you won OA---then the GTX came and you couldn't win--so you quit..
I only did this on a FAR more casual basis but I did do, post 1989, pretty OK...

What do you need to see to shut your fucking trap? You want scans of 3rds and 4trhs overall?
Scans of national SS times?

Why? you'll just argue that the field was shitty---evidently because you weren't there.
SHUT THE FUCK UP McCollugh

Fake EDIT: You don't know the MILES--fuck me you know EVERYTHING but you don't know the miles of each stage???
Didn't stop you from DRAWING Stupidly exaggerated conclusions about your relative speeds.
Do you doubt the figures? Because you imagined you were 10 mph average faster...and now you make excuses your car wasn't very fast.. Do you remember what engine/ what spec?

Have you no shame, Gene?

Now you slander me for "shady business' practices"----who the fuck are YOU.

You are really getting stupid Gene, seriously...

Again since you are and always have been THE MAGIC guy you denigrate any experience that is not within your experience...

Thank god that the majority of the people I deal with are bright enough to see that knowledge is transferable----hardware may differ, but the important lessons eventually are the same..and the biggest is dollar spent to laugh return ratio...

You're not funny any more..Go Away.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Morison

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Dazed_Driver
What was the original thread?

Not that important to this discussion. (but it was the 'this will save rally' thread.)

Ahh, thanks, I just wanted some context.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Oh my John...remember this?
JV: "You and whoever else defends anybody driving 42 mph average...and have only one perennial last place B spec poseur are troll lol lol ing hard..


I bet even you could do better...Probably even Gene at his extremely advanced age....And I know I did..
And once again since you seem to be so "forgetful"


1967 thru 1997 ---that's plenty so Fuck you, very much, eat shit and die, putz.

And if I was ever that slow I would have quit in shame."

That was about your 3rd post pissing on someone you don't know..who just finished a National.

Then this?
JV: without miles to calculate an average all it says is time. YOU Gene are being a total asshole again and again attempting to get others to believe your bullshit that "YOU DOMINATED" and I "never did anything.. "
You have the miles for each of the stages? "

You instantly picked up on the lack of published mileage and who knows where you got the figures you're publishing. Mine was the best I could find that had some reliability. Yours??


How about this?
Me: "Predictable....figure about 120 miles average for the National, Buffum averaged about 60mph. I averaged about 50mph. Move that to the regional events looks like I beat you by about 6 minutes?? I was driving the old 510 and was far from being the fast guy then...you were even further. So guessing about 80 stage miles as it was a shorter event then you look to have been around that 40mph mark. Point is everyone starts somewhere, speed is irrelevent to an individuals fun."

Notice the words about or looks like or guessing? And the whole point was to get you to shut up about Andrews results. By your own fabricated results you were under 40 on one stage. It happens and you didn't quit in shame (nor should you have).

I think we all tire of it, I certainly do. It is very harmful to the community but it is so very hard to ignore a bully like you. I was raised to not ignore that.

I guess I'll just have to try harder...you might could too.

Spec on the Datsun ? 1973 510 2door. L20B, stock compression, mild reground cam, 500cfm Carter 4bbl (not the bestest idea in the world btw), 2inch exhaust, stock Datsun 4 speed, not sure on the final drive at that point in its life. All glass windows, full dash and head liner, stock door panels, radio, 610 springs and Tokico inserts, stock brakes with BAP/Geon metal master pads and shoes. Nuthin fancy. Not a fast car, maybe 110hp, was a tough car tho. Rolled that on two occasions and never broke a window. Did have to be towed back to the road both times and trees cut down once to facilitate that. However it was fast enough to have actually caught you and the Sooper WRC spec SAAB on a few of the stages in the event that has you so wound up.

My quitting? Nothing to do with GTXs, I regularly beat Lund, Beeson, Bottles and ran with Millens wife's GTX. The Talons weren't a big problem either then, of course they were in PGT trim , and the GTXs were PGT or GpA. Of course Millen, Zwart and those guys were a different league. Moody and those guys hadn't shown up yet. By that point I ran the last season in the Lite class in a 1500 cc Datsun and scored a championship with the wife. At some point Christensen t-boned a stump and his co-driver cracked his sternum, that bothered me as John was a better driver than I was imo. With Brent being just a baby we decided it was time and wife wanted to buy a boat. Not long after Ray Damitio offered me the Celica AllTrac to drive, all expenses paid and my wife could co-drive for Janice in the 510 , again expense free. We thought about it over night and gracefully declined..our time was over with competing. 10 years, several OA wins, several top 10 Nationals, Seed 1 national ranking (#9 on the list), two or three regional championships, a couple divisional runner-ups nothing more to do really. Boating turned into a great family hobby we still do to this day. You wouldn't know any of that as we weren't friends and other than seeing you at tech never spoke. Anything else sir??

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Prefect Aaron!
How about a kinder, gentler Rally Anarchy?

speaking of relative speed, look at how the crowd only gets excited when Travis shows up.





no that is not my youtube. I just try to keep up with all the rally stuff around here and looks like a bunch of sunday drivers to me. I see people drive faster at rallycross.

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I am not an alien

Koolaid on specialstage just an FYI



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2014 03:04PM by reecers.

To be fair, that's the exit of a very long right hand turn that had softened up quite a bit. L3 into R2> into L2< I think was the note. I stuffed it into the ditch in front of that guy on Stage 12 (the first running) when it didn't tighten nearly as much as I thought it would.

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reecers
speaking of relative speed, look at how the crowd only gets excited when Travis shows up.

It's all about the header length........ Travis only gets that noise from the crowd because he happens to run a header setup that resonates at a frequency that induces orgasm in both male and female Soobaroo loving humanoids.

Proof of the above statement is qualified by the fact that neither my 4 cylinder 1.6 VW car, my single cylinder 250 2 stroke motorbike, or my single cylinder Briggs and Stratton 4 stroke lawnmower (even when running them with Castrol R in the petrol for nasal stimulation) have ever caused me to jizz my pants.
Scientific fact.

Edit. Oh, and whilst on the subject of relative speed, my uncle hauls ass....

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Disappointingly not yet a Jackass



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2014 11:30AM by danster.