WTF NEFR!!

Quote
MattP
Sadly it seems nowadays that most teams when faced with the run for fun/no points example they tend to load up and disappear rather than use it as a very organised test session with no pressure.

Up until the days of SuperRally coming to Canada, there was no option to 'run for fun' in CARS events. Even today, letting someone back in randomly and un-scored isn't really allowed under CARS rules/insurance.

This is exactly what led me to add on the 'Seat Time' rally to the second day of RMR, so teams that dnf'd the national would be automatically entered in a non-points event the next day (and so people without national licenses could get the full mileage)

This mentality comes back to - as I understand it - the largest insurance payout in CARS history, which was a car that was allowed back in to 'run for fun.'

---

First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

You've gotta be kidding.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
hoche
You've gotta be kidding.

About what?

For the first 10 years I competed in Canada, if you DNF'd you were DNF... no chance of getting back in for fun. I've seen a guy cross the country, have a minor stuff on the first stage, drive the car out but be DNF for the rest of the event. Sucks hard, but ZERO leeway from the sanctioning body. From what I was told - 'cause I couldn't talk directly to them - the underwriter took a very strong position that only COMPETITORS were covered, not cars being let to run and not be scored.

---

First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

Quote
hoche
Depends. Generally if the stewards OK it then it's OK, and they might do that if it's a medical issue. It's happened to me before. My codriver became horribly sick and had to be hospitalized and we stuffed my crewchief in the car for the second day. It was all OKed by the stewards so I still ended up in the points.

OTOH, at a different event I was codriving and I got sick with the flu. I felt miserable and pulled out of the second day but it wasn't deemed serious enough by the stewards so the guy I was navvying for got kicked from the nationals.


Edit: I checked the ARA GCR's. Section 6.2.3:
The Stewards of the Event have power in accordance with these GCRs to:
...
(l) Authorize the change of driver or competition vehicle;
...

So, as I said, it's something that can happen and be perfectly legit.

You have to read rules by the letter of the law or chaos ensues..

So it says driver...or the car..

Din't say a thing about co-driver....

Whatever, Subaru has bought the series, really makes no difference to anything.. Accept the inevitable

Really who care if it has been one of the defining characteristics of what made rally rally and not some girlieboy wank fest like say F1.. It used to be the block, heads, turbo, and other junk and stuff was plombé, sealed and paint marked..The car and many of its major components you had to finish with...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Not Trolling


This mentality comes back to - as I understand it - the largest insurance payout in CARS history, which was a car that was allowed back in to 'run for fun.'

All these years and you still always allude to stuff.

How to write like to an interested reader:
Always include:
who?
what?
where?
when?
how?
and if you can, why?

The habit of making oblique references to things you alluse to knowing details is an odd habit you have...and haven't made any visible effort to purge..
Try it again..details.
Things make sense and pivot on details

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
All these years and you still always allude to stuff.
Try it again..details.
Things make sense and pivot on details

I know I've given the details of this in the past, it isn't exactly a secret, and is fairly widely known story... but. Ultimately, the details are un-important, as it is the results and the underwriter's position that matter.
In terms of the insurance company's position - that was told to me by Terry Epp, who is on the ASN board and who deals with the insurance policy. That was after being told the same from event organizers and (then) regional director Suzanne Stewart.

In terms of the incident: A top driver DNF'd an event and was allowed to continue to get seat time/testing time in the car. For whatever reason, he hit a crest, missed a corner and chose parked cars instead of people. Not going to name the driver, because the story was told to be directly by him, and I'm not entirely sure he'd want that shared. Couldn't tell you which event, 'cause it was before my time. But, first hand accounts of the accident AND the underwriter's reaction.

You could 'what-if' this to death if you wanted... but what's the point.

When I was on the CARS Board we added the ability for teams to 're-enter' the event with significant penalties so they could continue and get valuable seat-time if the car was able to continue. I think that is a good thing.

---

First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

Travis should have had a 50mm co-driver.

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Quote
Not Trolling

Quote
john vanlandingham
All these years and you still always allude to stuff.
Try it again..details.
Things make sense and pivot on details

I know I've given the details of this in the past, it isn't exactly a secret, and is fairly widely known story... but. Ultimately, the details are un-important, as it is the results and the underwriter's position that matter.
In terms of the insurance company's position - that was told to me by Terry Epp, who is on the ASN board and who deals with the insurance policy. That was after being told the same from event organizers and (then) regional director Suzanne Stewart.

In terms of the incident: A top driver DNF'd an event and was allowed to continue to get seat time/testing time in the car. For whatever reason, he hit a crest, missed a corner and chose parked cars instead of people. Not going to name the driver, because the story was told to be directly by him, and I'm not entirely sure he'd want that shared. Couldn't tell you which event, 'cause it was before my time. But, first hand accounts of the accident AND the underwriter's reaction.

You could 'what-if' this to death if you wanted... but what's the point.

When I was on the CARS Board we added the ability for teams to 're-enter' the event with significant penalties so they could continue and get valuable seat-time if the car was able to continue. I think that is a good thing.

And that is why you are lame. Your method of communicating is that of a salesman.
And that's why you earn no respect, Morison.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And that is why you are lame. Your method of communicating is that of a salesman.
And that's why you earn no respect, Morison.

The fact I don't have your respect bothers me not one bit.

You can mis-direct and look for reasons to call me out all you want, that doesn't change the facts I am presenting. I have no need to name drop, and with some of the second or third-hand stories I'm not 100% sure of the details. But the lessons and/or repercussions from the stories are what is important, not the minutia and details.

Particularly in this case I was simply stating that as a result of a DNF car returning 'for fun' and hitting several parked cars, the underwriter created the condition that only 'competitors' were insured, and DNF teams running for fun weren't competitors.
The details of the original incident are, frankly, irrelevant to that.

On the other hand we have you, who inserts so much detail and drops so many names into your missives that 'everyone I talk to' assumes you're bullshitting on the details anyway.

---

First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

Quote
Not Trolling

Quote
john vanlandingham
And that is why you are lame. Your method of communicating is that of a salesman.
And that's why you earn no respect, Morison.

The fact I don't have your respect bothers me not one bit.

You can mis-direct and look for reasons to call me out all you want, that doesn't change the facts I am presenting. I have no need to name drop, and with some of the second or third-hand stories I'm not 100% sure of the details. But the lessons and/or repercussions from the stories are what is important, not the minutia and details.

Particularly in this case I was simply stating that as a result of a DNF car returning 'for fun' and hitting several parked cars, the underwriter created the condition that only 'competitors' were insured, and DNF teams running for fun weren't competitors.
The details of the original incident are, frankly, irrelevant to that.

On the other hand we have you, who inserts so much detail and drops so many names into your missives that 'everyone I talk to' assumes you're bullshitting on the details anyway.

You presented no facts Morison, just allusions.. No names, no date, no location, no dollar figure, no details of cars, or injuries or really anything. All because you, some guy fake-paternalistically decided "it's not relevant" to anything.

WE, your readings are perfectly capable of deciding what is or isn't irrelevant..

THAT is what you, in your little world, fail to understand.

If some people are bothered with a person establishing a foundation and background for things they try to discuss, well I guess they can go read tweets as their source of information. Nothing I can do about that. If its too much for you, that's OK, we understand you have learning and cognitive difficulties. besides, you aren't building an engine or deciding on brakes, or manufacturing and advising on suspension, or, thank god, advising people on tactical thinking or driving...

You've done this sort of bullshit as your normal and standard way of communicating since day 1.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but in much of the world many people don't like smug, paternalistic bullshit, especially from somebody that expects their arguments to be taken seriously..

And, unforunately for everybody, you're just too stupid to realise that this clear accurate critique of the fucked up "I know all this stuff but I'm not going to tell you, neener neener" way you don't communicate is intended to help you..

Go tweet somewhere else.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Please send me $5 million dollahbucks so I can start the ARRA, and another $20 million so I can morph that into the ARRRRRRRA when I can no longer make the vig on the fleet of RVs and satellite trucks.

And when that fails, I'll start the "DSRSRT4IASZ" series (Drunk Street Racing SRT-4's in a School Zone) and clean up in Fox Sports Network royalties.

Am I supposed to be posting this in the "Save Ferris Rally" thread?

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Quote
john vanlandingham
You presented no facts Morison, just allusions.. No names, no date, no location, no dollar figure, no details of cars, or injuries or really anything. All because you, some guy fake-paternalistically decided "it's not relevant" to anything.

Ugh. I'm reasonably certain I've already said that I don't KNOW names, dates, location, dollar figure (good luck on getting that from the insurance company), details of cars, injuries, tire pressures, tire brands, gas octane, gas brand, weather conditions, blood alcohol level of driver, blood alcohol level of clerk of the course, blood alcohol level of the spectators, make of the cars hit, type of trees hit, who was or wasn't circumcised, and if that number changed as a result of the accident.

What I did say is that both Terry Epp, who at the time was an ASN Canada FIA Director and directly involved with discussions with the insurance broker and underwriter, and Suzanne Stewart, who was the regional director for CARS, both told me on a number of occasions that 'DNF cars can not be allowed to run for fun because the underwriter won't insure cars that aren't in competition because the largest insurance claim in rally was from an accident involving a car that had DNFd and was running for fun.'

Quote
john vanlandingham
Maybe you haven't noticed, but in much of the world many people don't like smug, paternalistic bullshit, especially from somebody that expects their arguments to be taken seriously.

More that a bit of ironing coming from you...

Quote
john vanlandingham
Go tweet somewhere else.

#RallyAnarchyRawx

---

First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

Quote
Not Trolling


There is no circumstance I would see where Durant, or the sub, should get the co-driver points.

That is the biggest part that I have a problem with. Regardless of other factors/decisions, there should have been no co-driver poiints awarded.

---

Don Kennedy

Quote
imnotcrazy

Quote
Not Trolling


There is no circumstance I would see where Durant, or the sub, should get the co-driver points.

That is the biggest part that I have a problem with. Regardless of other factors/decisions, there should have been no co-driver poiints awarded.

Points haven't been posted to the ARA site yet... so as far as we know, there won't be points given to either co-driver. (That said, I can't seem to find the championship scoring rules for ARA in their ruleset... might be having a dumb day today though.)

I'd be curious, and somewhat ironic some might say, in who said there would be points going to Durant as well as when and where it was said. I'm guessing this is the internet doing what it does best.

I think the only valid question is does the second place co-driver take first place points (and so-on) because the first place team didn't score. (I'd say no)

---

First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

Quote
Not Trolling

Quote
john vanlandingham
You presented no facts Morison, just allusions.. No names, no date, no location, no dollar figure, no details of cars, or injuries or really anything. All because you, some guy fake-paternalistically decided "it's not relevant" to anything.

Ugh. I'm reasonably certain I've already said that I don't KNOW names, dates, location, dollar figure (good luck on getting that from the insurance company), details of cars, injuries, tire pressures, tire brands, gas octane, gas brand, weather conditions, blood alcohol level of driver, blood alcohol level of clerk of the course, blood alcohol level of the spectators, make of the cars hit, type of trees hit, who was or wasn't circumcised, and if that number changed as a result of the accident.

What I did say is that both Terry Epp, who at the time was an ASN Canada FIA Director and directly involved with discussions with the insurance broker and underwriter, and Suzanne Stewart, who was the regional director for CARS, both told me on a number of occasions that 'DNF cars can not be allowed to run for fun because the underwriter won't insure cars that aren't in competition because the largest insurance claim in rally was from an accident involving a car that had DNFd and was running for fun.'

Quote
john vanlandingham
Maybe you haven't noticed, but in much of the world many people don't like smug, paternalistic bullshit, especially from somebody that expects their arguments to be taken seriously.

More that a bit of ironing coming from you...

Quote
john vanlandingham
Go tweet somewhere else.

#RallyAnarchyRawx

Sure is a long wiinded way of saying you're just repeating shit on the intra-webs that you REALLY don't know a fucking thing about..

Thanks for making it abundantly clear..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.