Morality of Rallying
Posted by NoCoast
NoCoast Grant Hughes Godlike Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
So I had a big two hour talk with a close friend that I hadn't seen in awhile a few weeks back.
I can't summarize the whole discussion but one thing that stood out was how anti-sequential gearboxes he was. It was almost offensive to him to remove that aspect of driver skill from the equation. We went into a big discussion of "shouldn't a driver use any tool at his disposal to get from ATC to FTC as quickly as possible though?" That discussion goes in well with my distaste for UTVs. I should disclose that as soon as Rally America and ARA announced that they will start allowing UTVs that I went shopping for them. It is attractive to the American mind of cheap financing and ability to race it insured. Then there is the aspect of race this weekend, take the wife and kids exploring in the mountains next weekend. But we all know what is going on. They are chasing marketing dollars and "professional" drivers. Are they diluting the purity of stage rally though by including these cars? Does anyone really think a UTV is safe? Side impacts in a rally car are scary. Side impacts in a UTV are almost certainly deadly at lower speeds. It is only a matter of time... I am also very tired of seeing Proto cars and the ingenious idea of putting a Subaru or Evo drivetrain into something else like it's this incredible feat of engineering and brilliance. I gave a friend the quick run down of my perceived history of these types of cars starting with Baratec in Argentina making the Maxi cars almost ten years ago, followed by Emma Gilmour importing one to New Zealand and then Force Motorsports replicating it locally and formation of the AP4 spec class. Now we have the Polish Proto cars, same idea but using even more stock components but with Evo drivetrains and a handful of variations/knock offs that use Peugot/Citroen or Subaru parts. There is always one common denominator between all these efforts though. Someone with a wad of cash up front to "invest". The AP4 spec could potentially be a very successful route to success with US rallying IF we had a coordinated effort of organizers, constructors, and manufacturers. But, any discussion is frivolous and generally a waste of time because there is no marketing benefit to a manufacturer with our divided and drunken sport comprised of three different sanctioning bodies running around chasing dollars and gentleman drivers. So, how do we fix the problem? The only solution I have come up with is a new championship. Oh wait, that adds to the problem. But one thing I know is that chasing "new" manufacturers that don't pose big threats to Subaru dominance in the form of Polaris or Yamaha or others is not going to "save" rally. Grant Hughes |
Gravity Fed Alex Staidle Mod Moderator Location: Δx = ħ/2Δp Join Date: 08/21/2009 Age: Settling Down Posts: 1,719 Rally Car: Various Heaps |
I'm just here to spend 5 years building a 38 year old rally car.
First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch) Driver (0), Co-Driver (7) Organizer (3), Volunteer (3) Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5) Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023 |
tdrrally edward mucklow Infallible Moderator Location: charleston,wv Join Date: 05/31/2011 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 763 Rally Car: ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle |
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Philippe Bellefleur same as above Junior Moderator Location: In the woods Join Date: 03/12/2016 Age: Settling Down Posts: 130 |
Well, if we can't use ABS and TCS strategies because rally is driver skill focused then, I see no reason why fancy playstation shifty boxes would be allowed... |
Philippe Bellefleur same as above Junior Moderator Location: In the woods Join Date: 03/12/2016 Age: Settling Down Posts: 130 |
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biggreen96 Chris Caylor Mega Moderator Location: Moscow ID/Pullman WA Join Date: 07/30/2009 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 251 Rally Car: Old Legacy- not very stock. |
Definitely just a matter of time. Those turbo UTV guys are beating cars at Idaho. Some without codrivers... Fuck. They deserve gnarlier roads though. The amount of travel they have puts them in a different class. I think they should be pushed into the rally cross type racing so they can have jumps and closer emergency services.
Brap Brap. |
NoCoast Grant Hughes Godlike Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
There was a UTV race up here at a 40 acre timber yard. $10 entry for racers, free for spectators, beer and food vendors and a prize purse for the winners. I didn't hear about it until day before on radio but I was busy already so couldn't go check it out.
Grant Hughes |
hoche Michel Hoche-Mong Godlike Moderator Location: Campbell, CA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,156 Rally Car: Golf, Golf, RX-3 |
Faulty generalization fallacy. There is an lack of data on the effects of race-prepared UTVs in rally-style impacts. There simply haven't been enough observable incidents. Rally Idaho has been running them for years and has had one off as far as I can remember, and that was a no-injury incident. They did have an incident where a volunteer rolled a UTV a few years back, but the injury was a result of not wearing the seatbelts rather than from the roll itself. Gorman and Frazier Mtn have both run ATVs (small fields though) without incident. The BITD and SCORE cage rules for UTVs is similar to the old weight-based rules for cars - the tubes start at 1.5 x 0.095 for under 2K and go up to 1.75 x 0.095 for heavier. The stock cages for the smaller ones are 1.5 x 0.095, bolted. You have to weld them and gusset them in certain places for them to be accepted. Chromoly or mild steel is accepted if you're going to build your own from scratch. The required bars are similar to vehicles, although only one door bar is required. NRS's written rules are somewhat vague, leaving it up to the event scrutineers to make the final call. This is an unfortunate consequence of several things, the main one being that as mentioned above there simply isn't enough data on UTV crashes in rally. The other is that there just aren't that many rally-only UTVs and many competitors are wanting to have vehicles that can run both rally and desert events. ARA has decided that you have to build a custom cage out of 1.5x0.095 or better, with some bars OK at 1.25x0.095. The door area has to have a top tube out of 1.5, but the rest can be 1.25, for instance. They accept and A, V, or X design in the door. I personally would like to see more of an emphasis on having A-pillar reinforcement, as the top-corner-of-the-windshield is one of the most common types of hits seen in rally. I'd also like to see ARA's bar sizes scale with weight. Self-righteous douche canoe |
Philippe Bellefleur same as above Junior Moderator Location: In the woods Join Date: 03/12/2016 Age: Settling Down Posts: 130 |
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hoche Michel Hoche-Mong Godlike Moderator Location: Campbell, CA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,156 Rally Car: Golf, Golf, RX-3 |
Now the opinion part:
The main *operational* problem with UTVs in rally is that they're not technically road-legal. Some states/counties don't care as long as you keep to back roads, but the most are sticklers about it. This forces events to either make special concessions (separate routes, allow trailering, etc) for the UTVs, or severely limit the number of roads that the event uses to ones that're entirely in a reserved blocked-off region. As for the rest of it - I'm not really sure what you're getting at. I haven't heard that ARA was trying to get UTV sponsors. I was under the impression that they have SxS rules primarily to allow Idaho to continue to have them and because USAC already had some made up and the insurance worked out so it was an easy thing to provide. I dunno though - just guessing. I suspect R-A adopted them in a desperate move to refrain from becoming entirely irrelevant. As for sequentials, I'm in the "whatever" camp. I kinda toss that in the bucket with turbos, AWD, active diffs, 20" of travel, custom ECUs, and so on. Just a tool. If a lot of people want them or one person/team is dominating the class because of a tech advantage, consider putting them in a different class to even up the racing. But think carefully about it first and be sure that the domination is from a tech advantage and not just driver skill or event prep. Self-righteous douche canoe |
hoche Michel Hoche-Mong Godlike Moderator Location: Campbell, CA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,156 Rally Car: Golf, Golf, RX-3 |
Dunno about where you are, but you can run with windows open with window nets here. The issue is keeping your arms and head inside the vehicle when you toss it off. The UTVs have the same requirements. You have to have a skinned door and window nets. The "why UTVs but no convertibles" question is a harder one that I don't have an answer for. Theoretically you could probably build a Miata with a cage that reinforced the A-pillars and went well above the roofline and then skin that with something, but you'd have to work with a senior scrutineer to get it approved. I certainly wouldn't approve it just off the cuff, but if we went over it and I thought the design was right and I talked to the sanctioning body's lawyer to make sure it'd be OK from an insurance perspective and so on, well... maybe. I have OKed a Del Sol, by the way. Of course, the guy cut a roof off a Civic and used that to turn the Del Sol into a hardtop... I'm sure someone's going to ask about Jeeps in a minute. They're just like SxS's, right? Self-righteous douche canoe Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2018 06:27PM by hoche. |
DanielSL Daniel Senior Moderator Location: Vero Beach, Florida Join Date: 03/02/2016 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 338 Rally Car: 2005 VW Mk. 4 Golf GTI 1.8T |
John Lambert runs a Miata in Rally Sprints, and he has done a couple of full stage rallies, including the UP. They made him add a lot of reinforcement to the cage under the factory hard-top, and permanently affix it, but he was teched and has been running.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2018 06:29AM by DanielSL. |
NoCoast Grant Hughes Godlike Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
I'm solidly in the, use whatever technology is available mindset. 2016 Golf R with the DSG is on deck. 2011 135i with DCT is being sought.
UTV racing is this months GRC is this months drifting is ... It's more the dilution of ones ideals but I'm a rally elitist. I don't care about fancy street cars or F1 or much else car related. A fancy street car is a lost opportunity in my book. This thread is enjoyable though! Grant Hughes |
Vincent Gagnon The same thing that I just wrote Mod Moderator Location: Golden, BC Join Date: 03/12/2016 Age: Settling Down Posts: 157 Rally Car: Volvo 240 |
But...but you would still end up in a MIATA FOR FUCK SAKE! Ask for work. If they don't give you work, ask for bread. If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread. - Emma Goldman |
tdrrally edward mucklow Infallible Moderator Location: charleston,wv Join Date: 05/31/2011 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 763 Rally Car: ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle |
best in the desert SXS rules
http://bitd.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2018_UTV_Rulebook_228.pdf I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow! first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it! |
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