Can somebody explain this pop up valve stuff?

Quote

Subject: Pop-Off Valve implementation date delay

Issue Date: December 17, 2018

Bulletin 2018-06

The new pop-off valve installation requirement is scheduled for implementation January 1st 2019.

However we ran into some delays in negotiating the details with the supplier of pop-off valves.

The details are now finalized and the pop-off valves will be stocked in Canada and available from M2Motorsports out of Calgary. matt@msmotorsports.ca 1-403-708-0148

The price will be no more than $450 + GST/HST + shipping and will be firmed up once import duty is paid.

They anticipate having the valves in stock by January 1st 2019. The pop-off valves will be calibrated and tested before shipping but will be re-calibrated and sealed before competition.

The National Scrutineer will have a pop-off valve testing device at the national events.

As a result we are delaying the implementation date to May 1st 2019. This should allow teams time to purchase, fit and test with the pop-off valve set up on their cars.

After May 1st 2019 all drivers with a 70 or higher speed factor will be required to install the pop- off valve in all 4WD turbo cars.

What a surprise!
What is the model of that pop up valve?
Anyone have a part number?

---

Ask for work.
If they don't give you work, ask for bread.
If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.

- Emma Goldman

Down here we call them soda-off valves.

Seriously, on one hand I should berate you for not digging around on the CARS website and looking this up yourself. On the other hand they didn't exactly make it obvious.

If you go to the website, under Documents->Competitors, you'll find the 2018 rulebook. However, there's no mention of the pop-off valves there, nor any indication that there might even be something to worry about. For that you have to know to go to Documents->All Bulletins. Under there you will find the pop-off info buried in the April 18, 2018 Bulletin on O4WD, P4WD, and P2WD. In particular it indicates that it's only for drivers with a speed factor of 70 or higher, and it lists the manufacturer.

And now that I've looked all that up for you and typed up a summary, I've thought about it and decided that yeah, you need a smack upside the head for not doing it yourself.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
hoche
Down here we call them soda-off valves.

Seriously, on one hand I should berate you for not digging around on the CARS website and looking this up yourself. On the other hand they didn't exactly make it obvious.

If you go to the website, under Documents->Competitors, you'll find the 2018 rulebook. However, there's no mention of the pop-off valves there, nor any indication that there might even be something to worry about. For that you have to know to go to Documents->All Bulletins. Under there you will find the pop-off info buried in the April 18, 2018 Bulletin on O4WD, P4WD, and P2WD. In particular it indicates that it's only for drivers with a speed factor of 70 or higher, and it lists the manufacturer.

And now that I've looked all that up for you and typed up a summary, I've thought about it and decided that yeah, you need a smack upside the head for not doing it yourself.

Yeah I'll try and remember.....he'll be here again in early February...

Of course all of our dear Calgary forumistas who were so active and vigalent and who endlesly praised their World Class communications expertise and surprisingly absent both here and on the BaseFook page where this was originally posted---the cost over-run of nealy 60%, the deal to give one buddy the exclusive sales, and the same person being the person to "inspect" the valves at CRC events..
Why can't they communicate better?

There were threats of lawsuits from Canada's Ace Communicator in-Chief and former constant contributor here, lawsuits for defamation...How ironic is that???
So maybe everybody has been told post nothing public while the lawsuits idea is weighed..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Oh John... you shouldn't believe what some say so quickly.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Of course all of our dear Calgary forumistas who were so active and vigalent and who endlesly praised their World Class communications expertise and surprisingly absent both here and on the BaseFook page where this was originally posted...

Yup... but consider that Adam has blocked both Matt and I so we can neither see nor comment on his threads and you might understand why we weren't commenting on it. (Someone even called Adam on that fact and he said he had no desire to unblock me so I could comment.)

Quote
john vanlandingham
-the cost over-run of nealy 60%, the deal to give one buddy the exclusive sales, and the same person being the person to "inspect" the valves at CRC events.

Yah... no. While I can't find the document that proposed the rules, my recollection is the original 300ish price was in GBP, which is a little over $500cad right now. Others remember the same.

When this was discussed at the competitors roundtable at the CARS AGM last January, there was a desire to have a 'Canadian' Supplier expressed by the car owners there, which is how - I expect - Matt got involved. Considering you'll have to have someone at the events to test and check the units, and Matt is volunteering as the National Scrutineer, this kind of makes sense.

You should also note that the bulletin itself makes no reference to Matt being a 'sole supplier,' and the rule change that introduced the pop-off valves gives the full name and all contact information for the supplier if someone wants to buy directly. (Likely more expensive than the 'bulk buy' through Matt.)

Quote
john vanlandingham
Why can't they communicate better?

See above regarding being muzzled by someone who has no interest in allowing discussion. Seems to me you took a dim view (rightfully) of people bad mouthing you on SpecialStage.com after you were banned... this would be pretty much the same on the weasel scale wouldn't it?

Quote
john vanlandingham
There were threats of lawsuits from Canada's Ace Communicator in-Chief and former constant contributor here, lawsuits for defamation...How ironic is that???

This makes me chuckle more than a little bit.
I was sent screen captures of Adam's post where he appears to libel me along with links to some reading on defamation laws in Canada. I make a 'throwaway' post on facebook about reading up on libel law and that is suddenly called 'threatening legal action.' For the record, zero outreach to either a lawyer or Adam has been made. I'm not sure how you can threaten someone without trying to contact them in any way.

Quote
john vanlandingham
So maybe everybody has been told post nothing public while the lawsuits idea is weighed..

Bahahaha... no.
I'm certainly not putting any time or money into pursuing legal action. Even though you don't have to prove damages for libel in Canada, I wouldn't bother taking action unless I actually suffered measurable damages.

---

First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

Quote
Vincent Gagnon
What a surprise! What is the model of that pop up valve? Anyone have a part number?

Perhaps I'm feeling a bit more generous than Hoche:

"notes on Pop-off Valves" background document from CARS

Bulletin 2018-01 announcing the rule change

Bulletin 2018-06 announcing the change of implementation date

---

First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2018 12:54AM by Not Trolling.

And, I had to hunt this one down since CARS removed this because it was causing confusion with the final published rules... (There are some changes that were made after competitor feedback was weighed, most notably only requiring the pop-off valve after demonstrating some relative speed through a tipping point on the speed factor scale... the original rule simply required everyone to have them.)

Original Bulletin proposing the class changes, including the popoff valve.

Worth noting that the price of the unit at the time was 289 gbp, which was worth about $488 on the day, virtually the same on the day of the latest bulletin release, and up to $495ish today, or about a 1.7% float in cost due to exchange rates. (currency conversion used the average on any given day from https://www.poundsterlinglive.com, which has a nice history tool... but by all means grab whatever source floats your boat and correct me... it won't be far off and will be well above $450cad, and that's the real point)

Quote
Original CARS Bulletin
The current cost of the pop-off valve is 289 GBP. CARS will facilitate a group buy well before the beginning of the 2019 season at a competitive price. The mounting flange may be fabricated by the competitor or purchased from various shops.
Typically, these pop-off valves are inspected annually or about every 1500 stage km. CARS will have the ability to calibrate and service these valves locally by mid-2019 but pop-off valves may also be shipped back to the manufacturer for service.

(emphasis mine)

The bulletin also has a nice, brief summary of the reasoning behind the pop-off valve.

Quote
Original CARS Bulletin
Notes on Pop-off Valves
The pop-off valve, in conjunction with the restrictor, is designed to cap the performance of all 4WD forced induction engines. It is simply a precision mechanical valve that opens at a predetermined manifold pressure, effectively limiting the maximum boost pressure available.
This is expected to obviate the need for higher spec engine components and turbos, as well as limit the overall fuel burn and reduce wear on the driveline. Ultimately, this will reduce the cost to compete competitively and increase competition within the class.
Pop-off valves are commonly used in many motorsports series (including in the FIA R5 cars) to limit maximum allowed boost. They are a reliable and relatively inexpensive alternative to electronic control and monitoring of maximum boost pressure.

So, the recent bulletin that has a couple of people angry about cost increases is actually announcing the promised 'group buy' at a savings of ~10% to the competitor.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not wholly convinced that they've found the right answer. In particular, I think the threshold is too low (it was set by thinking anyone on the overall podium should have a pop-off valve, but the intent is to stop people from spending stupid money to get a small return in power... which some currently are. They've already set a bar of a .85 speed factor as being those that are in the 'draw' at the start of the event, so why not use that as the tipping point?

Also, for the curious, the list of committee members who came up with this is:

Quote
Original CARS Bulletin
The Technical Rules team that worked on these rules include;
Graham Bruce (CARS Technical Director), Ray Richards, Chris Pye, Darryl Malone, Maxime Labrie, Boris Djordjevic

(at least three mechanical engineers, at least two of whom have direct motorsports experience, as well as two top-level (relative) competitors who are both impacted by the rule and the sf70 tipping point.)

---

First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2018 07:57PM by Not Trolling.

There was no deal to give a buddy the rights to sell these, I made an approach to the CARS board offering to do a group buy to reduce the individual cost to competitors. I am buying 15 in an effort to reduce the cost by approx $100 to each competitor. I had nothing to do with the drafting of the regs or the selection of the supplier, I just put up the money to get a better deal for everyone, I don't even need or will ever require one. Now if someone else wants to step up and hand me the approx $6600 I have paid out, to take this over then please by all means give me a call.

And as has already been stated the OP on FB has blocked me, so I am only seeing the misinformation via 3rd parties who are as bemused by that persons innuendos, lies and fabricated crap as I am.

---

Yes, it's a Ranger.
Xr4Ti, it is rwd and was made in Germany.

Quote
Not Trolling

Quote
Vincent Gagnon
What a surprise! What is the model of that pop up valve? Anyone have a part number?

Perhaps I'm feeling a bit more generous than Hoche:

"notes on Pop-off Valves" background document from CARS

Bulletin 2018-01 announcing the rule change

Bulletin 2018-06 announcing the change of implementation date

So I looked at those, didn’t see a part number. But I did see the “AngleConsulting” link, so this goes whoever makes it, to a distributor, to Angle the Angel to MattP for a whopping 600% markup less a 10% “friends saving Rally” discount.

---

Power means nothing if you cannot control it!

Quote
ElectroTech
So I looked at those, didn’t see a part number. But I did see the “AngleConsulting” link, so this goes whoever makes it, to a distributor, to Angle the Angel to MattP for a whopping 600% markup less a 10% “friends saving Rally” discount.

---

Ask for work.
If they don't give you work, ask for bread.
If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.

- Emma Goldman



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2019 11:03PM by Vincent Gagnon.

Quote
ElectroTech

Quote
Not Trolling

Quote
Vincent Gagnon
What a surprise! What is the model of that pop up valve? Anyone have a part number?

Perhaps I'm feeling a bit more generous than Hoche:

"notes on Pop-off Valves" background document from CARS

Bulletin 2018-01 announcing the rule change

Bulletin 2018-06 announcing the change of implementation date

So I looked at those, didn’t see a part number. But I did see the “AngleConsulting” link, so this goes whoever makes it, to a distributor, to Angle the Angel to MattP for a whopping 600% markup less a 10% “friends saving Rally” discount.

looks like a real manufacturing locale...whatchoo talking

Angle Consulting Limited
40 Wayside Avenue
Bushey
Herts
WD23 4SQabout...https://goo.gl/maps/2WshwMSZiHo

Be serious now and just look at who these guys are, look at this "about us"
ANGLE CONSULTING LTD and UK SPORT

Quote

Angle Consulting and UK Sport started working together in 2005. UK Sport was looking for cutting edge design and original solutions to sporting problems, with the express purpose of helping athletes win medals. For this reason, Angle Consulting has tended to work exclusively with Elite Athletes - proven medal winners, or very strong contenders for medals.

It is important to appreciate that there can be no detailed description of the equipment designed for UK Sport by Angle Consulting, as this would potentially compromise the competitive advantage that UK Sport is striving to give Britains’ elite athletes.

Work to date has dealt with the development of training and measurement devices for Cycling, Bob Skeleton and Wheelchair Racing.

In all cases, solutions were carried through from concept to realization, design through to manufacture.

Detailed, precise, confidence inspiring... I can see right now why the ENGINEERS were impressed with such clear accurate descriptions and drawings..

Big company too.
2 employees
http://www.datalog.co.uk/browse/company_officers.php/CompanyNumber/05105968/CompanyName/ANGLE+CONSULTING+LTD

Quote

Current ANGLE CONSULTING LTD Company Directors
Current Directors
Officer Role Occupation Date Appointed Country
Karin Deborah Cohn Company Secretary 2004-04-22 ENGLAND
Perry Cohn Director ENGINEER 2004-04-22 ENGLAND


Previous ANGLE CONSULTING LTD Company Directors
Previous Directors
Officer Role Date Appointed Date Resigned
Form 10 Secretaries Fd Ltd Nominated Secretary 2004-04-19 2004-04-21
Form 10 Directors Fd Ltd Nominated Director 2004-04-19 2004-04-21


Related Directorships / Associated Companies
Related Directorships for Perry Cohn
Officer Related Company Role Date Appointed Role Status Incorporation date Company Status
Perry Cohn AFFECTO LTD Director 2016-09-23 CURRENT 2016-09-23 Active
Perry Cohn DSPS ENGINEERING LIMITED Director 2016-06-01 CURRENT 2005-12-20 Active

Legit as fuck, cynics!
http://www.datalog.co.uk/browse/company_report.php/05105968/Prod223_1841_05105968_20160430.pdf

This is the big time you suspicious bastids...House worth GBP350-500,000, wife as secretary..
Lathe and mill out back in the shed...

Couldn't possibly reign in the excess speeds of the pointy end of the stick for less...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

---

First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

Quote
Not Trolling

Very good..You're finally learning that when I am speaking to friends that you can simply shut the fuck up because we don't care what you and your little 3 man Calgary Clique say.

Because you are trolling...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

---

First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2019 05:04PM by Not Trolling.

Any drawings available for this pop-up valve?

Quote
Philippe Bellefleur
Any drawings available for this pop-up valve?

---

Power means nothing if you cannot control it!