JVL was right

Last night I was talking with JVL and he pointed out an issue with the wording of the MTC rules in the RA PRR. I doubted him, but I read through it last night waiting for the ferry and he was right.

The rule says "At a MTC In, competitors may check-in before the target time without incurring any penalty if the competitors announce the time to the minute which they want to be checked-in and providing that minute has not already passed".

Strictly reading the rule, you should be able to declare ANY time that has not passed without incurring any penalty. There is an implication that the penalty that you would not incur is just the early check-in penalty and that you still need to declare the correct check-in time, but that isn't what the rule says.

Look for a Bulletin ...

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Last night I was talking with JVL and he pointed
> out an issue with the wording of the MTC rules in
> the RA PRR. I doubted him, but I read through it
> last night waiting for the ferry and he was
> right.
>
> The rule says "At a MTC In, competitors may
> check-in before the target time without incurring
> any penalty if the competitors announce the time
> to the minute which they want to be checked-in and
> providing that minute has not already passed".
>
> Strictly reading the rule, you should be able to
> declare ANY time that has not passed without
> incurring any penalty. There is an implication
> that the penalty that you would not incur is just
> the early check-in penalty and that you still need
> to declare the correct check-in time, but that
> isn't what the rule says.
>
> Look for a Bulletin ...
>


And I didn't even call you a name!!!!
(I hope you didn't feel neglected 8) )

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ahh, reading it the third time opened my eyes to what you're saying. You're correct that the wording of the rule does not match the intention or the common understanding OR the scoring software.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Anders Green Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ahh, reading it the third time opened my eyes to
> what you're saying. You're correct that the
> wording of the rule does not match the intention
> or the common understanding OR the scoring
> software.
>
> Anders
>
> Raleigh, NC
> Impreza H6 3.0

What's particularly interesting is that considering that at the now imfamous 1995 Lake Superior Pro Rally that the always affable Mike Hurst likes to ridicule and slander everybody over where I got 14 minutes* of MTC points and dropped from 4th or 5th OA to 7th or 8th, I carefully explain in the only "Inquiry" I've ever done, quoting and showing the wording in the book.

I have made detailed reference at least 3-4 times over on the Other Site explaining again in painstaking detail what really is so simple and received disdain, ridicule, off hand dismaissal, and tons of "You know what the intent of the rule is" in exasperation, and of course groans about "You come here causing problems and trying to change everything!!!!!!! for the outrageous suggestion that one word be added: CORRECT

4-5 minutes of face to face yakking as just a couple of guys and Alan being man enough to understand we're talking about the RULE and not who is good or if somebody is bad, and he sees the thing which I thought was rather blatantly obvious.

Yeah I'm such a bad dude.



*And in those days many events gave you a full minute or road points for any portion of a minute rather than the REST of the WORLD standard of 10 seconds penalty per minute late.
2min 20 sek would have been a lot easier to swallow than 14 full minutes.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2008 12:30AM by john vanlandingham.

Huh. Looks like the NRS rules might have the same issue. I'll put that on the list of things to fix. (2.18.3 if someone wants to check it out.)

Cheers,
Anders
(next main time control i check into I'm going to ask for "eleventy billion" for my mintute )

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Anders Green Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Huh. Looks like the NRS rules might have the same
> issue. I'll put that on the list of things to fix.
> (2.18.3 if someone wants to check it out.)
>
> Cheers,
> Anders
> (next main time control i check into I'm going to
> ask for "eleventy billion" for my mintute )
>
> Raleigh, NC
> Impreza H6 3.0

Hey while we're having a collective Group hug (gawd think of it, while this site and me personally is getting insulting and abused by people who claim they've never been here, we have Rally America Rules guy, NASA organiser and naughtiest person in the whole USA all examining a rules issure and agreeing! Bugger me!) can i make a suggestion for rules consideration?

Thanks, again, this is a simple easy change, virtually zero effort to do and it can save a lot of grief.

Can we make it the NORMAL procedure to turn in the time cards at the end of the last stage?
That way the various problems resulting in DNFs and whatever that people have historically had between the end of the last stage and where ever the Rally HQ is obviated.
I mean very often we do have unusually long transits back, and I know I've seen and had issues sometimes on the 55 miles back to rally HQ JUST TO HAND IN THE CARDS.

The advantage is the results would reflct more who was fastest on the stages, which is ostensibly who were trying to showcase.

Whaddya guys think?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

So you would not time or "score" the last transit ?

Hey JVL want me to sue SCCA and the organisers of the infamous rally and get the scores corrected on your behalf? In the mean time I can sue evilthreateningemailsender for shits and giggles too. Just say it, it would be fun to take then to United Nations Human Rights Council for discrimination and unequal treatment.

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Cheers
M.Samli
Phoenix AZ
Gaylant VR4
EVO III GSR (Stolen)


Rallies are no place for traitors

>So you would not time or "score" the last transit?

If a competitor made a mistake on the last transit, gave the wrong check-in time to the MTC and was assessed road points, the competitor could submit an inquiry on the basis of 7.5.B.6 says you may check in "without incurring ANY penalty".

My first thought is: I'm against it.

And now why... *grin*

1) (From a sanctioning body perspective) I'm a proponent of each organizer putting together the "information infrastructure" of their event together in a way that fits the unique situations of that rally, so I would be against a _rule_ (i know you didn't say "rule" John ) making it so. Plus, there's less doubt about whether the insurance would still be in place for the final transit back to service.

2) (from an organizer perspective) If one turned in the time card at the finish control of the last stage, all the time cards would sit there till sweep arrived. So the last set of time cards wouldn't arrive to scoring till 20 minutes after the last car. This would delay the scoring even more than usual.

Also, it would mean cars wouldn't have to go to the finish. This is particularly useful for the organizers telling newbie control crews where to find their car or other such hookups we're frequently asked to arrange.

3) (from a competitor perspective) I'd be a fan of the whole rally being "completed", scored or not (in the instance of the last TC). I can remember some cool stories of "press on" and nice competitor cooperation that came about because of the need to make it to the last control. I wouldn't want that to go away.

Looks like I'm against on all counts. Different reasons for all three. But wait, the post can't be finished, as I haven't made any personal attacks yet!!! *grin*

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Did I misunderstand Gene's post? Was he proposing that the final transit not be scored? I got a proposal once to disallow early check-ins at MTCs. I have never received any requests to not score the final transit.

The year that I did Seed 9, there was no ATCs or transit time. That was weird.

alan

I wonder if the "stated time" part got in with the CARS rule merger.
I know CARS has a one minute grace deal where you can be one minute early into the control but not hand in the time card until the correct minute.

(I know very few rules - but this one I'm sure of)