Stupid Mustang Question...

Quote
tdrrally
bigger tyres work wonders in the desert for sure
but on the gravel, yikes!

V8s work good in the desert for sure, too.

but on gravel? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

utecht proved how well they can do

---

I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

Quote
tdrrally
utecht proved how well they can do

But he did not prove that a V8 was needed.
Or that he would have done better with something else....like a simple 4 cylinder engine combined with gearing.
but whatever.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

he did prove the lowly fox chassis could win
the v8 is just cheap torque

i have had my share of 4 cylinders cars vw toyota mitsubishi ect
i got bored with ring the guts of then
and tired of force feeding them.
just want simple fun with good brakes and great suspension

well that's the plan

---

I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

Quote
tdrrally
he did prove the lowly fox chassis could win

Maybe he simply showed how mediocre others are? Maybe?

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Grant Hughes

maybe
or its about the driver then the car?

i'm looking for low dollar fun!

and i miss my starion esi-r and can't afford to rally
but a v8 fox is doable

---

I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

Quote
tdrrally
he did prove the lowly fox chassis could win
the v8 is just cheap torque

i have had my share of 4 cylinders cars vw toyota mitsubishi ect
i got bored with ring the guts of then
and tired of force feeding them.
just want simple fun with good brakes and great suspension

well that's the plan

OK I am not arguiung with you. I'm tired of Gene and a few others screaming at me about whatever bullshit they scream about. I am asking NOT FOR YOU, you have decided to do this despite all the reports of ineffective V8s are. Now we get a second piece of the puzzle highlighted above..
Again I am not arguing, I am asking for the others, those who are building 4 cylinder cars....so please think back to "your share" of VW Toyotas Misterbitchy etc and tell me what final drive rations you started with and what you did with final drives in all those cars..

And of course what KIND of cars those were.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hey Ed, the 205's might be eaten alive with the torque of the V8....'specially on a dry, hard surface.

John, Ed is a pretty smart guy with cars and cost tradeoffs.....and knows what he likes....so don't let the laid back attitude fool you. And he can drive a rally car quite well; I rode with him in STPR once up on a time in the Starion esi-r, and he knew how to use every bit of that power. You can believe him when he says he would 'ring the guts out of them'; his driving was beyond the power/torque capability of a standard NA 4 banger when he first stepped into a rally car.

Regards, Mark B.

the celica had a 4.30 gear from toy van with lsd from a supra
the vw had the n/a diesel gear box
the mitsu ran a 3.90 gear
the other mitsu cars ran what ever a dsm or mirage runs

the big issue i have with fwd cars is the cost of r&p

don't get me wrong i lovum all the first real racing car i ever drove has a bre spec 510
then a mix of e30 cars the m3 was my favorite
and i can't for get my fiat 131 abarth parts a plenty on that one

thank you mark for the kind words and thank you for your service

---

I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

Quote
tdrrally
the celica had a 4.30 gear from toy van with lsd from a supra
the vw had the n/a diesel gear box
the mitsu ran a 3.90 gear
the other mitsu cars ran what ever a dsm or mirage runs

the big issue i have with fwd cars is the cost of r&p

don't get me wrong i lovum all the first real racing car i ever drove has a bre spec 510
then a mix of e30 cars the m3 was my favorite
and i can't for get my fiat 131 abarth parts a plenty on that one

thank you mark for the kind words and thank you for your service

So the Celica and the VW barely had gears short enough to compensate more than 10% more than the typical tire geared them up...
More typical for n.a cars with "warm" motors on 14" tires is like 4.88, and on around 2.0 liter and 15" the old school rwd norm was about 5,1:1
Little hot 1.6 motors are happy with 5.3
My Saab was born with 4.88---and tall tires maybe 64cm tall so it got initially 5.83 when it was a little motor on a twin 40 Weber DF1, and when it got more powerz via 2 x 45 DCOEs, it got the great 5.45

And you're on the money about the big drawback with FWD cars being the cost---and the bother---of useful alternate final drive..
Dana 30 and Toyota rwd ring and pinion sets are between $130 to $235 new..

And added to all the other woes of FWD is the fact that to get short enough ratios for reasonable fun with that fixed distance between the shafts it was necessary to make very small pinion gears usually cut right into the shaft and below maybe 9 teeth, I'm told tooth profile is compromised--and there went reliability.
So most went to around 4,27 final drive with bigger pinions, and then made the gears make more reduction...ie 4th like 1.35 and top 1.16

Do the math 4.27 x 1.16 and overall in top= 4.95, right around the old 5.0 to 5.1

How do you suppose the Toyota and the VW would have felt with 20% more torque everywhere from idle up to redline?
That's why a V8 isn't needed. Right parts are.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

i always ran the best parts the budget would allow

i would rather spend my cash on suspension, brakes and lower the weight of the car
the 300lbs of torque at 3200 rpms the v8 makes will work fine. and be turbo lag free

toyota 4.30 gear from a parts yard, at the time was $35 installed
the 4.30 wth 22re engine and 24" tires was almost to short sometimes. it works great at an autocross.

fwd r&p are not cheap, i used the diesel boxin the vw (free), lowest gear set with 13" tires it was ok

i would rather rally on a budget than not rally at all
if that means stock bits that get replaced as needed then so be it

if i don't like the mustang and or the v8 i can change the engine or sell the car to road racer or go road racing

i would love to build a celica tct or 240rs replica in the future and maybe i will but for now its american iron

celica tct

240rs


your input is always welcome, i do agree the 4 cylinder cars need more gear
but they all need better suspenders !

---

I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

Quote
tdrrally
i always ran the best parts the budget would allow

i would rather spend my cash on suspension, brakes and lower the weight of the car
the 300lbs of torque at 3200 rpms the v8 makes will work fine. and be turbo lag free

toyota 4.30 gear from a parts yard, at the time was $35 installed
the 4.30 wth 22re engine and 24" tires was almost to short sometimes. it works great at an autocross.

fwd r&p are not cheap, i used the diesel boxin the vw (free), lowest gear set with 13" tires it was ok

i would rather rally on a budget than not rally at all
if that means stock bits that get replaced as needed then so be it

if i don't like the mustang and or the v8 i can change the engine or sell the car to road racer or go road racing

i would love to build a celica tct or 240rs replica in the future and maybe i will but for now its american iron

celica tct

240rs


your input is always welcome, i do agree the 4 cylinder cars need more gear
but they all need better suspenders !

OK. you know that this is more discussion for those guys who don't know this shit rather than arguing wif youse, OK?

The lurker to poster ratio is pretty high and many guys have never experienced like VW 4.2 or proper 4.88 or 5.1....

And yes the cost of the right stuff is higher and that's one reason I push Dana 30 for smaller stuff cause the price for new gear set is so low---$135-175 is today cheap for the 20% more torque gained at every rpm. ($35 is better--I got my whole Supra diff assembly with LSD and 4.3 for $32.75---and since Toyota 8" is so popular with the truck guys I got a 4.1 set for $10 and a 4.3 for $15 off Flea-bay)

The one thing that short ratios requires however is a motor that can happily rev to about 7000 or we lose top speed...my little Saab revs to 7k and has a top speed of right at 105mph w/ 62 cm tires..
.
Maybe those things you had wouldn't happily do 7000..

That's the beauty of motors that make plenty of torque: you don't have to gear 'em so short, and 4.3 works perfectly and the box still has a useable 1st..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

i agree for someone just getting into rallying or racing in general

START WITH A SMALL DISPLACEMENT CAR AND LEARN HOW TO DRIVE!!!

TRIPLE CAUTION OVER CREST!!!

after you have balled a couple of good cars up then go from there

my celica gts had a 7.5 supra irs with a stock lsd and the van gear and a near stock 22re engine, great fun good torque ok power
the starion was more better by a bit

---

I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

Quote
tdrrally
i agree for someone just getting into rallying or racing in general

START WITH A SMALL DISPLACEMENT CAR AND LEARN HOW TO DRIVE!!!

TRIPLE CAUTION OVER CREST!!!

after you have balled a couple of good cars up then go from there

my celica gts had a 7.5 supra irs with a stock lsd and the van gear and a near stock 22re engine, great fun good torque ok power
the starion was more better by a bit

Yeah I could see that. Those Mitsu things I've buuilt a few good ones and made 'em short stroke so they woul be happier revving but the Starion motor/cam/box/final drive did work arf-fully good. Big strong diff in back too, fawking heavy! (hell the crank makes a volvo crank look noodly, and the old Volvo cranks are bigger everything than small block Chevy)

Similar heads betwwen the MrBitchy and Toiletta, difference is it is hard to make a det resistant n.a. HIGH COMP version of either, but wif turboz, who cares! Low comp ,turn up ze booost..

Have you ever sat down and cranked out numbers like
"Motor A--2300 SOHC Turbo--
-240 ft/lbs x (first gear ratio) x final drive = xxxx ft/lbs
-240 ft/lbs x (second gear ratio) x final drive= xxxx ft/lbs
-240 ft/lbs x (third gear ratio) x final drive= xxxx ft/lbs
etc

Then "Motor B----xxxx-xxxxx"
etc

??
Very interestink, Schmart.......ask Siegfried would say...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

thought about a 2.3t, but the 5.0 with an auto and rear gear tba (3.27 or 3.55) and 26-27" tyre

no plan on big power 225 hp and the torque will do for awhile

real focus is on suspension, brakes and a diet for the car and i

its not a beast but it growls like one

more than once thought about an elsinger 2.3t in an xratty or foxtang, run like a cossie and cost like a pinto

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!