Bushings

It's coming to the point where I really do need to replace the bushings all over in my 82 volvo 242.. I've been putting this off the entire year because I just don't want to do it. I dread bushing removal and installation, especially when I have to do it laying on the ground in the hot alabama heat. But now my friend who owns a shop has come around and realized I can actually do decent work on a car by myself, so he's letting me use his lifts and other equipment whenever I need them.

So some time in the next month or two I'd like to get on the new bushings train, but have one big question:

Poly or Rubber?

I want to go poly since the car will be mostly driven on tarmac and occasionally driven on dirt/gravel (70% of the miles will be road racing/time trials/hill climbs, 15% autocross, 15% rallycross) but the more I think about it, the less I want to go that route because it just seems like overkill.

The volvo is a blast to drive but it's pretty sloppy around everything due to having almost 30 year old components that have either degraded completely or almost completely, and I can't put this off any longer.


So, rally gurus, should I just stick with rubber bushings for the more supple ride and more forgiving attitude of the compound, or go with poly and rattle my teeth out for the life of the car?

The rattliness of ANY bushing depends not on the material, but the durometer.
There's mushy poly out there..

And I've done poly in cars--with bushings 1/2 the diameter of Volvo---and nobody has ever complained.
I prefer poly cause they stay whatever they are long and don't turn back into a petroleum product when drooooly Fords slobber all over them.

Do poly and then have fun.

buy a Family Sized can of Anti-Seize

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Not so much a jack, but more of an extension of the OP's question-

What about the Motor mounts?

Just found out my 240's mounts are both done, and I could go stock rubber, or try to find something more hard. I know the convention is poly/etc, but would you want that on the roughness on stage, or something with some more give?

Quote
BobOfTheFuture
Not so much a jack, but more of an extension of the OP's question-

What about the Motor mounts?

Just found out my 240's mounts are both done, and I could go stock rubber, or try to find something more hard. I know the convention is poly/etc, but would you want that on the roughness on stage, or something with some more give?

Bob, the motor mounts are a bit of a problem. Lots of cheap imitation rubberoid-like things which are really coagulated post nasal drip.
OEM are just barely adequate.
There are viscous rumors of some Bavarian Maggot Wagon mount being a good substitute. I'd look into that pending some serious mounts later.

One a real stage rally car you want some rubber isolation, but you also want the motor to sit still
MOST serious rwd cars did some variation of something like this:
(look down below manifold)(and the sheet metal chassi rail mountings welded in so the motor is mounted to the CAR, not the crossmember, and a wide base):


Earlier--1990 spec welded up 909 mounts:


Later, 94 spec more expensive to make Billet 909 units:


Clear drawing of the concept:


Here's a Capri I did with the chassi rail part (and a very easy to make and vital little gusset between the chassi rail and the firewall):




Here's Duratec I did mounts inspired by the Sierra early mounts:



This sis something like what anybody who wants a car they can pound for years and just forget should aim for:


Here's Volvo versions:



Hope you noticed the extensive stitch-welding....
nudge nudge..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Here's Group B Celica stealing a page from Ford:


Here you can see the mount sticking out...



Clearly it is an area that is addressed and done on rally cars completely differently than road cars.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Holy crap, pretty sure you could hang another car on those mounts.

So, I guess the point is go for stiffer, but with some vibe dampening.

I kinda jumped the gun, and went with these-

http://yhst-26451710505916.stores.yahoo.net/240poenmo.html

Mostly because all the E30 mounts I was finding were both straight though, and all the driver side ones Ive seen on the various websites were offset.

These were a bit pricy, should have waited probably.

I've read lots of rumblings about drilling a hockey puck to do the job. If these bite it, I may try that... haha.

And, yes, yes, I see the stitch welding. If I only had a little garage space I'd pick up a welder right now and start doing that asap. Im sure to farm that out, due to the time it would require, would cost quite a bit.

Call now stop shipment. That place is a bunch of "20s urban hipsters" who really don't know anything very well---the owner is a computer dood for a winery and hires in any buddy or whatever ..

They have a pretty web site but do not know manufacturing, or reality...
Those specific things have huge amount of reports that the delaminate instantly---oh except reports from guys in the Portland area...and they are notorious for big plans "Group Buys" that either run out in the sand---the "camshaft" group buy, or take 12-18 months past their promised delivery date, like "the stroker crank group buy", which some unlucky bastids had credit cards dinged for thr rods and piston INTENDED TO WORK WITH STROKER CRANK, thus useless without the crank, stitting for 18 months PAST the drop dead date...

Further, these boys offer "carved on" stock cast iron flywheels--that cost more than the all new STEEL flywheels I'm making in the shortest run I make things. That is only possible if they don't know shit and are getting fucked and too innocent to know they're getting fucked.....but everything else is the same---they don't kniow they're getting good info or not.

STAY AWAY
And, I didn't suggest those. If I didn't suggest those, DON'T BUY.
I suggested some BMW things.

Quote
BobOfTheFuture
Holy crap, pretty sure you could hang another car on those mounts.

So, I guess the point is go for stiffer, but with some vibe dampening.

I kinda jumped the gun, and went with these-

http://yhst-26451710505916.stores.yahoo.net/240poenmo.html

Mostly because all the E30 mounts I was finding were both straight though, and all the driver side ones Ive seen on the various websites were offset.

These were a bit pricy, should have waited probably.

I've read lots of rumblings about drilling a hockey puck to do the job. If these bite it, I may try that... haha.

And, yes, yes, I see the stitch welding. If I only had a little garage space I'd pick up a welder right now and start doing that asap. Im sure to farm that out, due to the time it would require, would cost quite a bit.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I know you didnt suggest them, I said I jumped the gun, I purchased before I waited for a response here.

The BMW E30 straight through mounts will work? Ive seen one of the stock mounts is offset, This can be changed?

Quote
BobOfTheFuture
I know you didnt suggest them, I said I jumped the gun, I purchased before I waited for a response here.

The BMW E30 straight through mounts will work? Ive seen one of the stock mounts is offset, This can be changed?

OK well check, that's what Al gore invented the intra-webz for so we don't buy crap from well-meaning but incompetent kids..

I don't know cause I only have used the straight ones as auxilliary mounts on other cars, and sump guard mounts and even exhaust jhangers.. But I saw references to using them..get out there and look!
Maybe ya can easily.

My solution for mounts has been to fab new serious mounts.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John, can you give any specs on those mounts you made like how big around the open end is? Where you can source the insert / cost? And how often the insert needs to be changed out.

Ok, I copy, I'll look around. I was just seeing if anyone knew.

Can you explain a little why the motor mounts be mounted to THE CAR and not the sub frame?

when we mount the new 2RZ thingy is this something we need to do? a new subframe was part of the plan.

So, two car companies have done motor mounts in that method. How many privateers have and have had any luck doing so?
Those poly ones are cheap and probably sufficient for now.
Fuck stitch welding. Cage, seats, rally.

Servicability.
Entire front subframe can be removed to access suspension, steering racks, etc with ease.

Good call that makes alot of sense.