Tell the FNG why we need sanctioning bodies?

Because I'm curious. As a relative FNG, here, I'm always looking to learn more about things, hopefully not becoming jaded or bitter like some of the posters I see. So, if the majority of rallyists in this country do so to be entertained rather than to entertain others and the sanctioning bodies can't unite to benefit all, why isn't there more independent rally out there? Does it all simply boil down to insurance?

Surely rallyists could join forces to form LLCs which would then purchase land in their region which could then be managed by the regional LLCs. Rallyists owned and operated. Events could be held on said plots of land and covered under a regional insurance policy of sorts tied to teh safety of the events held. Fees or dues could be charged in order to pay the mortgage/maintenance.

This would eliminate BLM/USFS issues, imo, and the cost of repairs could be spread out over longer time frames, making them more reasonable.

Humor me. It's just a thought. We don't need one well-to-do benefactor to bankroll a national campaign. We really need to pool our resources to provide regular, regional competition. :shrug

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Brian,
For various social and economic reason nearly all non circle track car racing in the US has devolved into the realm of being passtimes for a few rich guys and the larger the nature of the event ie "national" the worse the tendancy.
The way you can tell is the emphasis is kept fucoused on the "Season" and that means that nearly anybody who can afford a blue Sub-a-rat and to get somebody to get his junk to the events has a fair chance of a top 3 class placement and a top 10 overall.

So every damn 1 bit event wants to be a National, or worse an "International".

Now many of the un worthy have said the same thing to me "I don't give a shit, I just want some fun closed roads to be crazy on" which considering the appallling low level of competition (especially appallingly bad considering the cost and effort so many go to so they can in essence wank off in front of people), is the correct attitude.

But currently now that the price of the minimum to enter is so high, a differnet sort of person is attracted to rally now than previously, more consumer than real racers, indeed more consumer than human. Many are the sort whose person self image is tied directly to the consumer choices, and not with WHAT they do with what they buy but merely the possession of it.

Now consumers or "consumeroids" as i call them are always keenly image concious, aware that their input into the thing that they present as their "identity" consisted of flashing plastic, and they know that all the other consumeroids know that as well.
Worse they know unworthy dirty (like mechanics and engine builders and real racers) grunts know that.
So they want to take part in things with lots of glory and hype so they can at least bamboozle those who don't know shit about whatever wierd thing they're doing.

So Organizers feel it would be in their interest to call their little fun meetings "Pro-Rally" or "Untidy States National Champignonshit" when in reality the turnout averes far less than we would get for my old club is Swedens "Club" championship just for the club members.

Andf for that you have to pay lots to some Organisation for "Sanction and insurance fees", extortion really.

It's fawked up.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I think it boils down to insurance.

What we really do need to do is start getting a local/regional club type system to form the backbone of the sport instead of relying on trickle down from the two big groups and benevolent dictators/event promoters to supply us with events and instead make events as a local GROUP and then put the sanctioning/insurance OUT TO BID. Entry fees more than $10/stage mile are ridiculous. Maybe the $500 30 to 50 mile club events are now just reality and we should all rent a garage in Quebec and keep cars in Canada, or fly over the pond a few times a year and rent rides...

Of course, getting local clubs together involves some of us ADD/unmotivated/over scheduled knuckleheads getting off our collective duffs and really starting something. We've had a few attempts locally in Nude Hamster, but we get sidetracked, or our attempts to put on a rallycross get dashed by insurance companies, etc. After the holidays (and the baby starts sleeping more than 4 hours at a stretch), I guess I'll have to call a winter meeting of the locals.

But buying land useful for more than a rallycross is out of the reach of just about everybody short of Havir, and even trying to do a rallycross here in the northeast gets all the NIMBY crowd crying to their local government. Using land is tougher and tougher. Look at Maine Forest Rally. It's now New England Forest...why, because most of the roads are now in New Hampshire! Most all of the land that was owned by the paper companies and mills (a local presence eager to show multipurpose stewardship of the land and efforts to bring money into the community) is now in the hands of "land management" companies, whose purpose seems to be to make the land look profitable to shareholders and charity to the government to keep taxation low. I really don't know, except that the new companies don't want us using the roads, there seems to be efforts to reduce snowmobiling as well. Now Maine is lucky to get 90 stage miles, I think it was 83 this past year! For a national that used to have a 26 mile stage and many others over 15 miles!


I think I've rambled on too many topics here...let's see what sticks.

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

So the really big issue is still insurance, right? If you're going to have people tearing ass all over creation, even if it's on your own, private property, you have to have insurance? Hmmm... (Not that you *have* to have it, but it's smart.)

I believe Grant once told me about a place out in the Denver area that had a sort of "rally playground" where you could go out and get some practice in without much risk. Seems to me that might be the sort of thing to look into. The trick, I guess, would be differentiating the sport from rallyX or, worst case scenario, redneck dirt track circle(jerk) racing.

I can see why so many people are leery of North American rally turning into Stadium rally, lumped in with MX and all that, but it could be that the community might get more publicity doing such events. I think the exposure might serve to draw more bodies to the rally scene. "The jumps and stuff at Thunderdrome 2007 were totally sick! You mean to tell me people do this for hundreds of miles, outside? Sign me up!"

Dunno.

Seems like a raw deal for the people who just want to get out and rally. There needs to be a focus on business in order to grow the sport and improve conditions in the community, but it seems there might be people losing sight of how much effort should be put into rally and how much into business. Hmph.

Guess I'll just keep to my small scale grassroots marketing efforts.

Thanks fellas.

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

DR1665 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> I can see why so many people are leery of North
> American rally turning into Stadium rally, lumped
> in with MX and all that, but it could be that the
> community might get more publicity doing such
> events. I think the exposure might serve to draw
> more bodies to the rally scene. "The jumps and
> stuff at Thunderdrome 2007 were totally sick! You
> mean to tell me people do this for hundreds of
> miles, outside? Sign me up!"
> >
> Seems like a raw deal for the people who just want
> to get out and rally. There needs to be a focus
> on business in order to grow the sport and improve
> conditions in the community, but it seems there
> might be people losing sight of how much effort
> should be put into rally and how much into
> business. Hmph.
>
> Guess I'll just keep to my small scale grassroots
> marketing efforts.
>
> Thanks fellas.
>
> Brian DR1665 | Phoenix, AZ
> 91 GVR4


Hey Brian,
For some persective, the 'rally as a business' thing as you see it now seemed to come on seriously in the late 90's under SCCA. There was a push to do it from the top level, and there was talk of 5 year plans, 'make or break', etc. It immediately rasied the question of was this a sport or a a business. The conflict has been ongoing ever since.

We can argue all day long about that to do. Each person will have his/her own angle or take on it. For the record, I still believe in the sport as a hobby/sportsman/participant sport; therefore, I tend to shy away from the business view. I grew up in NASCAR country, and saw it go from a handful of top cars running with 30+ smaller local guys with limited or no sponsors (it varied a lot with the track) in the 60's (like we are now) to all professional teams.

So, rally has not always been like this. I think it is going to gradualy split and go both directions.

AS for sanctioning bodies? Well, competing, organizing, and running things at the top level all are big jobs. No one person or small group of persons can do it all. IMO, sanctioning bodies exist beacuse they do serve a useful purpose. Obtaingin insurance is a biggie. But, also they do things that individual organizers have a hard time doing and which we need to have done. Things like:
- Setting a rules standard with which you can go to a wide number of events and have you car accepted and know how the event will run. It's plenty of work to do this. And you DON'T want rally events setting their own rules sets in any broad sense; think of the chaos in car prep rules alone.
- Do top level work like most of the marketing, and memebership. Event organizers are focused in their area, on their event. They don't have time for these things.

It works well in several areas to have a common organization handle the common tasks that we all need: rules, insurance, memebership, broad marketing. Yes, we have to put up with the sanctioning bodies, and there sre some compromises between the divergent views at the organizer and competitor level. BTW, you might be a bit surprised at the influence organizers can eventually gain with the sanctioning bodies. The sanctioning bodies need organizers and competitors to exist.

Regards,
Mark B.

You would be very pressed to put on an event without insurance. No private or government entity is going to allow you to use their land or roads without it.

You are certainly free to go shop it. I know, I have a number of times. In fact, NASA Rally Sport started because I was shopping insurance for a rallysprint event in Georgia when the SCCA shut down the club program because of the deaths at Sawmill. NASA was kind enough to give a quote, and the rest is history.

There are other sources out there besides NASA and whoever RA places their policy through. Give Ivan Orisek (RNY) a call. He's picked some up somewhere for his events.

However, I'll go ahead and let you know that finding inexpensive insurance for speed events is a thing of the past.

If you want to set out the insurance for your event for bid, I'm sure that NASA Rally Sport would be more than happy to respond.

On the BLM/USFS/Land company issue, I would suggest that you would have much more success going to a local county and seeing if you could use their roads. This gets rid of the federal bureaucracy (and road fees), plus allows you to sell it to the local politicos as a beneficial impact on the local economy. You won't get far without a similar sales pitch. Ergo the desire of event organizers to want to be labelled as a National, even if the event is essentially a club event.

Regards,

Wilson

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

Thanks for the information, Wilson. I appreciate it.

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest