Best option for a starter car

Hello, forgive me for being rather new to the forum.

Im looking to start some rally racing myself and have been doing some research lately. I wanted to get some feedback on what would be the best car for me to buy in order to start rallying. My price range for the car would be around 5-6k and I wanted to start with a car that is 4wd. Im a student and I realize that 5-6k isnt going to get me anything spectacular but I'm very willing to put a lot of time and money into the car to make it decent. Im rather handy mechanically and love to work on cars so I would be doing the majority of the modifcations and work to the car myself.

So far I have looked at these cars:
- Subaru Impreza or Legacy
- Toyota Celica
- Ford Focus
- Audi Quattro
- Mitsubishi Lancer
- Volkswagen Golf

I realized that not all of those cars may come with a 4wd option, but was wondering if it was worth the time converting a 2wd car into a 4wd? Out of the list above, what would be the best car for me? Also, if you have a better car in mind then feel free to suggest it, im open to ideas.


Thank you for your time.

Well, first of all, have you been to SpecialStage.com's Car Construction Forum? That question has been brought up, thrashed about, diced up into little bits, cooked into a casserole, sliced into bite sized portions, chewed over agonizingy, and swallowed and regurgitated many many times. It's worth your while going and reading the threads there. It's also worth your while realizing that many people are opinionated, but not everyone's opinion is worth a damn.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2006 09:44PM by hoche.

Ummmm...if I was mean, I'd say "search noob!", but I'm not.

First off, depending on what rallies you enter, the sanctioning body won't let you run a 4wd car unless you know the secret handshake or restrict the power to the point that it's not fun to drive.

Second, $6,000 isn't going to buy much more than a used bundle of headaches. Older Legacy maybe, seen a few of those around, good stable platform allegedly. Celica is a heavy car, ditto Audis. Any turbo Lancer or Impreza is going to be on the nasty side of $20k built unless you find some sort of salvage special and do all the prep work yourself (can you weld? Do you trust your life to those welds?). Unless you're a miracle worker, I'd be going 2wd.

If you're resourceful, you might be able to buy or build a 2wd car in your price range.

Focus? There is a Spec Focus class coming out in NASA rally next year, but the diff is junk for rally and the spec is kinda pricey for the performance.

Golf is sort of the default car for US 2wd rally. Has its good and bad points. Search here and on SpecialStage.com for more info.

2wd Lancer? The idea has been bounced about, I know there are a couple out there, if you found the right salvage car to build it could be interesting.

The Nissan Sentra SE-R is a little short on suspension travel, gearing isn't great, but many people have found them a nice tossable car.

The oaf-ish-ul Rally Anarchy mantra is going to be build a Volvo 240 or Merkur XR4Ti (Ford Sierra). Use the search function for information overload. Do they have the bling factor 99% of the population is looking for? No, but are they used with mucho successo as clubman cars in Yurrup? Yep.

I'll shut up and let Vanlandingham take over. Everything I know comes from spending too much time reading rally internet forums, and not enough digging my XR4 shell out from under the tires, weedwacker, chainsaw, toolbox, etc. and actually working on it.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Mitsubishi Galant VR4. Then again, I'm kinda biased. Haven't actually rallied mine yet, but I can offer the following points for consideration (which might go against oaf-ish-ul RallyAnarchy mindsets):

-Bred from rally car roots (homolation special of WRC car)
-AWD
-There's a reason why Mitsubishi still uses the venerable 4G63 in it's Lancer Evolutions. Look at it sideways and it will make power.
-Established aftermarket means replacement parts are relatively easy to come by (shares it's platform with the first generation Eclipse/Talon/Laser AWD cars).

A brief history lesson for you, after Audi arrived on the scene in the early 80s with their AWD Quattro (and later Sport Quattro), they handed everyone their asses. Manufacturers scrambled to build AWD rally cars. The Mitsubishi contribution to the scene was the Galant VR4. Mitsubishi did very well with the car into the very early 90s, when the trend for works cars was a shorter wheelbase hatchback. At this point, Mitsubishi opted to shoehorn the existing running gear into the smaller, more nimble Lancer. The "Evo" was born. The Evos you see prowling the streets of your town are the ninth generation of a proud heritage that all started with the Galant VR4.

You can often find a GVR4 (or "Gaylant" as we fondly call them) for under $3000. They come with 190hp 2.0L 4-cylinder (4G63T), AWD, AWS (delete), and ABS (delete). The 6-bolt crank, first generation 4G63s are known to handle more than 400hp on stock internals with proper tuning, and there are a number of vendors specializing in both the 4G63 and the AWD transmission.

Like I said, I'm biased, but they're wonderful cars which, in the hands of the right builder/driver, will give you a lot of proud service and instantly enter you into a club of only 3008 GVR4s sold in the US between 1991 and 1992.

For a teaser video, find a recent thread in the Off Topic forum here titled something to affect of "Inspiration for Moose and I." You will not be disappointed.

(PS - Sorry JVL. I'm a DSM whore.)

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Find an Impreza for under 2 grand, with no rust. Fuck, buy one in Colorado off craigslist and drive it back. I bought my current one for $600, Steve's was 900, and Aarons was $1000. All but Aarons have no rust, and Aaron's isn't bad.

Cage, seats, harness, and maybe a set of GR2s to get you started. Then start saving like mad to buy suspension. Next comes engine and diffs.

Regardless of car, you'll end up spending at least $10K over time if you do it yourself. With the Impreza you can at least do a few events even if it's with limited power. And you get contingency money and lots of used parts from Subaru forums.

2.2L swap into a 1.8 Impreza cost $100. We did two plus a rear diff in a Merkur in under 6 hours.

I've driven a 2.2L NA Subaru rally car and codriven in two different turbo ones. They're fun and an easy starting point to get out there quick.

If I could start over and get rid of the $10K worth of shit in my back room and start over with an Impreza I would. Until then I just have to aim for 300 horse and big fucking rooster tails. And maybe a running rally car before I retire.

---

Grant Hughes

Garrettmc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello, forgive me for being rather new to the
> forum.

Welcome aboard Garrett. No need at all to apologize, only thing forbidden here is using the phrase "proper decorum" seriously, or blatant hypocracy and lies that are intended to be mean and aren't funny.
>
> Im looking to start some rally racing myself and
> have been doing some research lately. I wanted to
> get some feedback on what would be the best car
> for me to buy in order to start rallying. My price
> range for the car would be around 5-6k and I
> wanted to start with a car that is 4wd. Im a
> student and I realize that 5-6k isnt going to get
> me anything spectacular but I'm very willing to
> put a lot of time and money into the car to make
> it decent. Im rather handy mechanically and love
> to work on cars so I would be doing the majority
> of the modifcations and work to the car myself.

Can I ask (what the fawk, Im gonna anyway!)
Why 4wd? (I have only rallied fwd, but I own a 4wd car that is funner than hell but I am gathering up the bits to un-4wd it and set it up as rwd. More on this later.)
Be straight with why (and I'll say why I built a 4wd car, too)
>
> So far I have looked at these cars:
> - Subaru Impreza or Legacy

You do know that if you don't buy some 6-15k gearbox you can expect maybe 150-250 miles out of the trannies before they blow up, and rebuilding them is expensive.
Maybe Joghn Cassidy who is one here can relate what he's done in the last 4-5 years doing US and canadian events

> - Toyota Celica
Celica All-tracs we excellent GpA cars in the WRC and the 3GSTE was the HP king of the early 90s.
They were uselss as GpN cars however, way too heavy, way too little brakes for as fast as they were and when you break the gearbox the official factory book-time to remove and replace (R&R) the gearbox is like 22.8 hrs. Seriously service is a nightmare. Also they came with open differentials front and rear and they are rarer than hen's teeth.

> - Ford Focus

They're big, but only moderately heavy. There are serious good gearbox and diffs available, but they cost more than your budget. Inadequate brakes stock, but fairly easy upgrades are out there. The motors make nowhere near enough to have much fun in a car this size and weight. The Duratec, the all alloy motor around since 01 has the potential to be one cool kickass powerplant, but that's gonna cost at least you whole budget.

> - Audi Quattro

Possible, just depends on if where you are you can score lots of bits in the junkyrads. You would have to make sure you got the models with struts and not the so called double a arms. Those are weaker than shit. Non-turbos are only barely able to drive down the roads, nothing a turbo wouldn't cure, and something a car that weight really wants.

> - Mitsubishi Lancer

You mean a fwd one? Cause the Evo-bitchies cost a lot more than that.
And the fwd one are sorta dead end: hard to get grip.
Pointless

> - Volkswagen Golf

Seems to be a lot of people's favorite in USA.
Oddly enough nowhere else.
They are excellent chassis, and there are real fun parts but again, the gearbox parts to be competitive are going to eat more than half your budget.
>
> I realized that not all of those cars may come
> with a 4wd option, but was wondering if it was
> worth the time converting a 2wd car into a 4wd?

I can only think of one that is actally easy:
Ford Sierra. I did one and Andrew Steere has ridden in it and driven it. It was relatively easy.
But rally for all of us is primarily a social thing, and if all my friends and the guys who I like are all in 2wd cars then I would be silly to be in a class (Open, PGT, GpN) with mostly guys who are of a totally different social and economic stratum than I am in. The likihood is that their entire world-view and perpective about everything from cars to trees to politics would be radically different, as well as their need for acknowledgement and praise.

I prefer to race and socialise with more relaxed people.

> Out of the list above, what would be the best car
> for me? Also, if you have a better car in mind
> then feel free to suggest it, im open to ideas.

Hey, why don't you go thru the list yourself and put in some comments on why you were thinking about each car?
Don't be shy, we may say "Holy shit man what the fuck are you thinking????" but tht doesn't mean we calling you stupid. Silly maybe but reall all this rally stuff is silly. And fun.



>
>
> Thank you for your time.

Uh uh, no more of this politeness shit around here,

And what did you think of Brian's suggestion of the Misterbitchy Gaylant?

And Andrews suggestion that we look to popular club level cars in other parts of the world whjich we can get here which are proven successful at very high overall placings even compared with proper GpA or WRC cars, he suggested Volvo 240 and Ford Sierra aka Xratty?

Again welcome aboard and don't be shy.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Welcome to the fine world of rallying.

5 - 6K... you should be looking at a built car that costs in the neighbourhood of 4K and then use the extra 1 - 2K for upgrades or neglected maintenance.

If you're eager and not interested in spending 2 years doing a part time build yourself, then you should definately buy a built car. Or buy a rust free beater, cage it, and throuw a set of harnesses in it.

Look up Chad Manley up in Canada. His first car was a Celica hatchback, with a cage and harnesses. No rally computer, fancy boingers, race seats, etc... Just a guy who wanted to race and went for it without all the frills.

If you're out to have fun, then buy yourself a RWD. If you want to be fast and pay lots for parts and maintenance then buy an AWD, or if you wanna be like everyone else then get a FWD.

Nemesis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Welcome to the fine world of rallying.
>
> 5 - 6K... you should be looking at a built car
> that costs in the neighbourhood of 4K and then use
> the extra 1 - 2K for upgrades or neglected
> maintenance.
>
> If you're eager and not interested in spending 2
> years doing a part time build yourself, then you
> should definately buy a built car. Or buy a rust
> free beater, cage it, and throuw a set of
> harnesses in it.
>
> Look up Chad Manley up in Canada. His first car
> was a Celica hatchback, with a cage and harnesses.
> No rally computer, fancy boingers, race seats,
> etc... Just a guy who wanted to race and went for
> it without all the frills.

Read carefully this man's words.
Look up what Chad had for woes and problems in his year with his Celica, and how at the end of the year he parked the car as he had then realised that there was little more he could do with that car--typical first year dead end and typical loss of money into cage, and loss of entries for events DNFed cause the car was falling apart.

>
> If you're out to have fun, then buy yourself a
> RWD. If you want to be fast and pay lots for parts
> and maintenance then buy an AWD, or if you wanna
> be like everyone else then get a FWD.

Actually many are building rwd cars, the coin's finally dropeed for them.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

>
> And what did you think of Brian's suggestion of
> the Misterbitchy Gaylant?


Uhhhm...

$3000 will buy you a raggedy-ass 200,000 mile 4wd beast with a great interior, decent gravel handling, plenty of room inside for you and your codriver -- complicated hideously expensive to maintain 16 year old spiteful hideous POS.

I have a GVR4 as a street car, I love it, it spends more time on the hoist than anything else I've ever owned -- if you want to learn the minutiae of how to fix 'relatively' modern cars this car is nothing short of a rolling teaching laboratory.

Another thing to keep in mind, heavy, powerful, fast 4wd cars burn a lot of money while rallying -- you will smoke a set of brake pads & rotors every rally, chew up countless sets of rally tires, have to buy a bigger trailer and tow-rig. A light and well built 2wd car will be cheaper to build, cheaper to rally, cheaper to maintain and more forgiving for a new driver.

Cheers, Ted

---

Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

What Ted Andkilde thought about my Gaylant:
-------------------------------------------------------
> $3000 will buy you a raggedy-ass 200,000 mile 4wd
> beast with a great interior, decent gravel
> handling, plenty of room inside for you and your
> codriver -- complicated hideously expensive to
> maintain 16 year old spiteful hideous POS.

Depends on where you're looking and how much work you're willing to do. $1500 bought me a dead engine, 145k on the clock, fading interior, rides jackstands like it's on rails, plenty of room inside for all the parts you took off the outside during the rebuild and I had to have a 20 year old DSMer come over to make sure I deleted all the complicated bits (ie: just about all the vac lines) as the bulk of my DSM experience is with the non-turbo second gens, which run a Neon motor (if you're thinking FWD, give serious thought to the Neons).

> complicated hideously expensive to
> maintain 16 year old spiteful hideous POS.

I had to quote this again because, while completely against my point of their being good cars, it's totally true. The saying among DSM owners is, "DSM: Turning average guys into master mechanics since 1989." "Spiteful" is the best part of that quote. LOL Spoken like a true DSM owner. (Although it's important to note that GVR4s are NOT DSMs. They just share a similar powertrain.)

> I have a GVR4 as a street car, I love it, it
> spends more time on the hoist than anything else
> I've ever owned -- if you want to learn the
> minutiae of how to fix 'relatively' modern cars
> this car is nothing short of a rolling teaching
> laboratory.

Perhaps, but I see a LOT of people in the world who seem to think the reputation of the 4G63 to handle upwards of 400hp on stock internals as an excuse to beat on it without the proper amount of maintenance and tuning. Granted, present company undoubtedly invests a great amount of time and effort into proper maintenance, as failure in a rally car at speed could mean life or death, however I firmly believe that a well cared for 4G63 will provide all the reliable service one could want. Every problem with the car I'm currently building can be traced back to a fuckass moron owner who obviously used insurance money to buy crack rather than perform any maintenance.

> Another thing to keep in mind, heavy, powerful,
> fast 4wd cars burn a lot of money while rallying
> -- you will smoke a set of brake pads & rotors
> every rally, chew up countless sets of rally
> tires, have to buy a bigger trailer and tow-rig. A
> light and well built 2wd car will be cheaper to
> build, cheaper to rally, cheaper to maintain and
> more forgiving for a new driver.

> Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly
> creative man -- Sir Alec

Two quotes for one! Mathematics owns this point. It's completely true. The larger size means greater weight and that means consumables will likely be consumed at a greater rate. To reduce this, I am considering upgrading to the Camaro "big brakes" for a less expensive braking solution, although Moose tells me the stockers do just fine for him. I'm also working on a solid rubber rally tire of high durometer that will last an entire season and, while I'm dreaming, I'd like a free Eaton M62 supercharger for Vanessa's Amigo so the decidedly robust power of the 3.2L V6 with which it is equipped will be better able to drag my 3100lb sled up hills. 4psi has been shown to net almost 50whp (and a good amount of torque), so gas mileage be damned! With a woman in the car with you, you'll be stopping every 150 miles to pee, so you might as well get gas while you're at it, right?

> Cheers, Ted

Indeed!

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Garrett,

Stay away from a turbo awd car if this will be your first rally car.
Stay away from cars that have intense electronic shit.
Go buy a carburated 2wd car. Keep it simple.

If you buy the right kind of car, it may also work as your daily driver. Whilst driving it every damn day, you will be able to learn how to get around problems as they hit you. That kind of experience comes very handy when you are contemplating a DNF miles from civilisation.

Keep in mind neither sanctioning bodies will let a newby run a turbo awd car.

And I repeat KEEP IT SIMPLE.

---

Cheers
M.Samli
Phoenix AZ
Gaylant VR4
EVO III GSR (Stolen)


Rallies are no place for traitors

Ooh oooh, lemme add to the redudndant and worthless and unheeded advice pile!

" My price range for the car would be around 5-6k and I wanted to start with a car that is 4wd."
This is exactly what my 1st 2 priorities were and I went out and bought a 323 GTX Mazdog. Which also very nearly was my last rallycar too, so this is a listen-to-what-I-say-and-not-as-I-did rant, dammit.

Of your 2 primary considerations, you're half right. A first rallycar should not cost more than about where you're thinking unless you're a rich bastard. But your very next priority should not be what manner of drivetrain you want, that's farther down the list. If I were looking for my 1st rallycar, with the advantage of 20-20 hindsight, I'd be thinking "5-8k and as lightweight as possible" followed by "easy parts availability" and "Cheaply and commonly available in streetcar form for the inevitable reshell". So let's go through these. 5-6k means you're buying someone's used rallycar. There is no way around it. You cannot unless you are Superman build a rallycar worth a shit for that amount even if the base car is a freebie. "lightweight as possible" means things like Corrolas and Rabbits and Hondas. When you're doing something as stupid as driving at 9 tenths on a narrow freaking logging road, momentum is NOT your friend. Light weight means less tire wear. Michelins for little cars run about 650 bucks and go up from there for the big boy cars. Brake pads last longer, at 100 bucks a set for Porterfields you want those to last a while too. Ken Miles said about racecars, that one should "simplificate, and add lightness" and he was right.
Then we have that whole parts availability thing. GTX stuff is getting hard to find. We're talking things like I bought the very last set lower A arms in the country, and Mazda ain't importing any more. So get something with aftermarket support. The other part, that whole reshell thing, well, unless you're driving like a pussy you *are going* to crash. Prolly in yer first season. Almost a virtual certainty by your 3rd season, something gonna catch you out. Even the very skilled experienced guys go off every now and then. Gotta be able to buy some cheap POS as a replacement to bolt all your go-fast stuff onto and keep the insanity going.
Now let's talk about drivetrains. Everyone says that 4wd is more expensive to run than 2wd but there ain't much evidence offered to support it, just assumptions about all those extra parts to break. In my experience, I broke no drivetrain parts that wouldn't have broken if it was a 2wd car. In fact the 2 transmissions of the notoriously weak GTX I did break, happened while the car was my daily driver, not when it was rallying. I'm quite sure you can find some manner of awd car that won't break any more often than the typical 2wd car, if you are mechanically sympatico and are nice to the gearbox. HOWEVER.. I will give you one example to chew on. When I had my cool ol' datsun 510 I could change the clutch by myself in my driveway in about 2 hours. Doing a clutch on an awd car (not a wrc car ya wiseasses) is a huge fucking nightmare of a job even if you have access to a real shop with a lift and all the right tools. If you pay someone else to do your clutch it's a thousand bucks. You will burn through clutches with alacrity. It starts to add up after a while. One other thing about awd, they aren't really all that fun (boring, in fact) until you're putting down serious power which costs serious money. At that point yeah it's serious fun, but you can get much the same sideways drifting rush in a cheaper rwd car. At low power, an awd car will hardly slide at all, it's hard to get the rear end to come out, and if you find yourself going faster than is prudent into a corner that's tighter than the navvie thought, well, there you are in a car that isn't able to rotate fast enough to get the grip pointed in a direction to keep you on the road and off you go into the bushes.

So I'd look for an '80's rwd Toyota corrola. The drivetrains on those things are almost bombproof. They are everywhere. Speed parts are everywhere. You can wad it into a ball and not feel guilty about killing off a rare species, you're just culling the herd. Another alternative would be a 2nd gen RX7 in Gp5. Common, tough, easy to make big power, but if you're tall you might not fit. If you're John Lane, you'd buy a Fairmont or some other fbody abortion. Why? The circletrack boys have seen to it that there is a huge amount of aftermarket gofast support for those. He figures for not much scratch one could buy someone's used racecar, redo the suspension for rally use, and go pretend you're a moonshine runner out there in the woods and have more hooliganistic roostertailing V8 fun than should be seemly, or legal. This concept violates my light-weight priority but once one has cut one's teeth on an easier car, this idea could be just the thing for someone wanting huge power for cheap. Keep in mind that this idea comes from someone who rallies a 500+hp Volvo, so a few grains of salt may be in order. I'd paint mine to look like either a taxi or a copcar...

---

Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

I firmly believe that a well cared for
> 4G63 will provide all the reliable service one
> could want.

If you could slap four wheels on a 4G63 and call it done I might agree with you -- though I'd still like to find the little bastard who devised the timing system so I could slap some sense into him -- or at least beat him until I get back the weeks of wasted life I've spent changing timing belts and cylinder heads (on the plus side, I can now change a TB, the tensioner, all the pulleys and the water pump in under two hours with time remaining to clean up and staunch the blood flow).

The driver's door wiring harness, on its own, is more extensive than the entire harness for my Mini -- the rest of the car just gets infinitely more complex...

Every problem with the car I'm
> currently building can be traced back to a fuckass
> moron owner who obviously used insurance money to
> buy crack rather than perform any maintenance.

My GVR4 lead a tough life before I got her, has a couple hundred TSD's under her belt at the hands of a multiple NEDIV championship winning team -- it was well maintained, came with a service history folder thick enough to hold back small arms fire, but knowing Mark & Frank, it needed it.

Oh, one more thing, PARTS...

When the Mitsu goes down, finding parts locally, or quickly is tough -- usually anything I find locally is off off off off brand and hideously overpriced -- such as $60 for a freakin' white-boxed valve cover gasket set with the half moon seals missing &%#$!

It is, astoundingly, far easier for me to find classic Mini parts (2 overnight sources, another half dozen 2 days out) quickly.

Find something that has good local dealer support AND cultivate a relationship with a good parts man (or woman). There are some real pros out there (hidden amongst the vast throngs of morons) if you find one they're like gold.

...while I'm dreaming, I'd like
> a free Eaton M62 supercharger for Vanessa's Amigo

I caution you, giving your girl more power could lead to some serious and potentially costly side effects. My wife's been driving the GVR4 for a few months and thinks a new MazdaSpeed 6 would be a nice safe reliable upgrade...

My votes for good first car would be:

Ford Escort
Ford Festiva
Nissan Sentra
Toyota Echo/Yaris
Suzuki Swift

Oh, look at trucks as well

2.3l Ranger
Chev/GM S-truck

But I suppose I ought to encourage you to go with a big fast expensive 4x4 so I don't have to compete against you

Cheers, Ted

---

Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2006 01:05PM by Ted Andkilde.

Ted you started to sound just like me.

Garrett stay away from GVR4s, they are too complicated and expensive for your budget. Especially if you don't live near a GVR4 owner with more parts than common sense, like me.

Get a Sentra, they are new(ish) so there are parts everywhere. Focus can be another good option for you and you can pick up a salvage/vandalised one from your local insurance auction dirt cheap. For some reason thieves have a tendancy to strip the interior and steel their wheels. Which in exchange leaves you with less shit to take out of the interior. However the control arms of the Foci SUCK. They must be made of recycled toilet papers.

JVL will start throwing stuff at me but you may also wanna consider a Honda Civic or if you can find a CRX Si. I was crazy enough to build and rally a CRX because they told me it could not be done. That car never DNFd because of a mechanical problem, the new owner DNFd due to driver errors, mostlt due to encounters with big rocks the size of engine blocks.

---

Cheers
M.Samli
Phoenix AZ
Gaylant VR4
EVO III GSR (Stolen)


Rallies are no place for traitors

Here..... It can be done.

---

Cheers
M.Samli
Phoenix AZ
Gaylant VR4
EVO III GSR (Stolen)


Rallies are no place for traitors