Best option for a starter car Part II

I'm hijacking/continuing this thread for me.

John asked, list the cars you're thinking of and why.

Audi 4000/80/90
AWD I don't think building a 2WD car makes as much sense. Cheap and plentiful, gearbox is supposed to be much stronger than the Subaru, good power with a turbo or the V8 :-). NEG ?

Subaru Legacy/Impreza
Tons of parts, knowhow, lots of people running them. NEG Gearboxes blow up when you push more than stock power through them (what I've heard many times, don't know if it's true).

Saab 900
It's a Saab! Tough, real front suspension, good power. NEG Gearboxes blow up when you push the power (not as bad a Subaru?), 2WD.

Volvo 140/240
It's a Volvo! Plentiful, cheap to build, lots of cheap tranny choices, cheap LSD choices. NEG 2WD.

I'm strongly leaning toward the Audi. Anyone build one? Anyone have one that's got a cage but needs some freshening. I don't yet know how to weld but I want to learn.

Thanks,

Audi, gearboxes are strong, power can be made, but diff options are not good. We had to run a Torsen and despite our 150+ hp advantage, would still lose on gravel to a WRX with good diffs. A 10V turbo engine can be built sweet for not alot of money. I've considered this route, but I wouldn't recommend it to most people.

Saab 900 - It's a Saab. I don't like Saab so I won't comment.

Subaru Impreza/Legacy. You live in Colorado. This option makes the most sense to me and if I were not almost done with my Merkur, or could go back and start over I'd build either an Impreza or a Legacy.

Volvo - Sweet, but some bits take some fab skills. But, the Volvo Cross idea is just on hold. We still eventually want to make it a grassroots series.

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Grant Hughes

NBS2005 Wrote:
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> I'm hijacking/continuing this thread for me.

Sweet! Now update your profile with the proper information for us!

I think that, despite all the information, ideas, and experience shared with us by others, most of us are just going to go off and do whatever damn fool idea we thought was best to begin with. It's human nature.

Coming to this site almost daily since I found it and reading as much as I can, I know that you'd be smart to heed the suggestions presented by those who have come before. I should probably be building an Xrat or Ovlov, but if I weren't a DSMer to the core and weren't so hell bent on "Keeping it in the family," I know I'd be building a Neon. It's all a matter of preference, man.

If you just want to get out there and rally with people to have a good time on a smaller budget, don't knock the 2WD/FWD crowd. There are some very fast drivers out there and the compact powertrains stand to offer a bit of resilience, even if just for being less complex.

Hell, there is just so much to consider and I don't think *any* platform is going to be perfect, so the main goal should be getting something that *you* feel comfortable building, breaking, and fixing regularly. People put a lot of stock in the rally car, but it's the people sitting inside it (and supporting it back at service) that make it fast.

:shrug

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

My mechanic is a VW/Audi specialist and he built a 4000 20v turbo that went as good as his '95 S4. I dont think the chassis is meant to handle that much power. We took a good look at Buffum's Grp. B audi coupe and it seemed like lots of bits were beefed up compared to a regular road car, I'm sure the road going homologation special has the same updates. The US model just wasnt meant to have that much torque. Parts are also a bitch, unless you have 2 or 3 parts cars (which i'm sure is possible where you live). I agree with the idea of a Subie if you can afford it. We wanted to build an RS, but played it safe with a $100 jetta for which we have a shitton of spares.
I have seen RS imprezas sell for 2500 with salvage title or that need work. Those engines are just torquey enough to get into trouble on stage, but are reliable as hell and when you are ready to move up in class, all you need to do is swap in a 2.0 turbo.
I think if you could build a sabb viggen it might be worth it, but witha 900 turbo youre just asking for trouble. I Have never been a fan of Saabs but areo's and viggens go like raped apes, I just dont think they can take the beating that some other european cars can.
I dont know much about volvos except that they are kickass in the snow, so theoreacially they would be good on gravel if you had the right (jvl) shockers, LSD and found some way to drop about 500lbs.
Goodluck with whatever you choose, you will have fun no matter what!

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Ted DeInnocentis
MK2 Jetta Coupe Rally Car
BMW E46 323i daily driver
Toyota Tacoma Sweep vehicle

Fuck Neons.

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Grant Hughes

Way back at the beging of time when Audi was the only car with AWD it was a good rally car, likely the best on gravel. As soon as others built AWD car, it became an also ran, it has never been competive since.

Understeering pigs of the earth I say, and I have owned a few, with odd struts that when bouncing off dips and berms with wheel turned (understeering/ Plowing) tend to brake and then the front wheel falls off...

In gpB days they stayed fast since they had lots more power than everyone else in today's world with 34mm restrictor they do not have more power and thus can not make up for all the other failings.

They do sound good however, very good!

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In the long run reality always wins.

NoCoast Wrote:
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> Fuck Neons.

Not cool!

grantCoolPoints(-1);

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

DR1665 Wrote:
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> NoCoast Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Fuck Neons.
>
> Not cool!
>
> grantCoolPoints(-1);

No perfectly legitimate opinion.
Referee?
The judgement is in and the verdict is-----No points lost, ball returned to the other side.

Tweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewt!!!

Hey how valuable desirable are the small port Misterbitchy 4Gee Whiz62 things?
They are obviouly better for restrictor motors, but who needs one or more?
>
>
>
>
> Brian DR1665 | Phoenix, AZ
> We are building a religion.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Brian cool points minus 7000 for suggesting a Neon. Don't give me the excuse about how they can make alot of power and that Doug Shepard had good results or Andrew Sutherland or whatever. There's been lots of mediocre rally cars raced successfully in the US. And a few just plain horrible. Anything can be made to have tons of power given effort, time, money, and/or fabrication ability. Any car can be successful in US rally with a good driver. Ie, throw Derek Bottles in a Geo Metro with no power and full interior and he'd still probably beat alot of Group 2 guys. Or better yet, throw Spongls in a stock Swift and watch them beat up everyone. Oh wait, that's been done.

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Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
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> Brian cool points minus 7000 for suggesting a
> Neon.

Hahahahaha! I love this place! I never *suggested* a Neon, Grant. I just said I would be building one myself. Right now, I have four friends with two rally Neons in the region. I still like my Galant enough that, if I had more garage space (and money coming out my ass), I'd be looking for one to keep as a nice daily driver.

For the money I've invested in my Talon and the Galant so far (about $6,000), I could have sourced a Neon, built it for stage rally and maybe even have some change left over for my first entry fee. Would it be fast? No. Would it be pretty? No. Would it be the end all rally car? Not hardly. But would I be rallying with friends in similar cars and having a blast doing it inside of six months? Damn straight.

I got into rally because I loved watching the way the likes of Sainz, Solberg and Martin pilot their machines in the WRC on Speed. I'm working to actually rally myself because of the friends I've made in the American rally community and out of a desire to play in the dirt with them. I'm not in this to find glory and five seconds of airtime at the X-Games. Haha. No, sir. (Pardon the manners.) I'm in this to have fun, myself, and hopefully get others involved this side of the pond.

No hard feelings or anything, man. Just remember, the man who agrees with everything you say is either a retard or he's plotting to kill you.

/presses the reset button

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

DR1665 Wrote:
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> I'm not in
> this to find glory and five seconds of airtime at
> the X-Games.
Your not? What other reason is there?



> No hard feelings or anything, man. Just remember,
> the man who agrees with everything you say is
> either a retard or he's plotting to kill you.
I don't have hard feelings ever. And I am always right or what I like is always what is best. People don't have to agree with me, they just are wrong or have bad taste. It's like music. You are more than welcome to listen to crap. And you don't have to like my music. It just means you have no taste in music.

PS> I still hate Neons. I'd build a Geo Metro before I'd even consider a Neon. But plus 7001 for building a VR4 so I guess you're still okay.

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Grant Hughes

Oh man. Nested quoting on this board is ugly. Switching to semi-bulleted, old school guns. Haha

As much as I would love to find fame and fortune through rally, I think we can all agree that, in much of this continent, you need the fame and fortune from the beginning if you're going to keep doing it. (Because you need reserves to slowly deplete over time due to the NASCAR mindfuck hoarding all the racing airtime.) I'm just in this because I want to go fast and do something different.

I'm all about being different. When someone tells me I can't do something, I want to do it even more. I like to blame my Id for that. It's why I have a fully built motor in my non-turbo "waste-of-time" non-turbo Talon and it's why comments like "Fuck Neons" make me want to build a rally Neon even more. If I spent $6000 building a rally Neon, I could get out there and actually race the car, have fun, gain valuable seat time and rally experience, and not cry too much when, should I decide to step up to something better, I can only get $3000 for the car on eBay or something.

And I think your totally right about being right, too. Without getting too far over towards "Everyone gets a trophy day" territory, in the end, we all have to choose that which best suits our own needs at the time. If your first priority is getting the car built and on stage as cheaply as possible, then something like a Neon might be worth considering. If your priority is longetivity, upgradability, and rally potential and a larger initial investment is cool with you, then there are better cars to go with.

I guess I kinda think this question is pretty much BS. It's been discussed all over the rally community into the ground. I think the trick is to find a car you're confident in building and supporting and go for it. Otherwise, you can spend years trying to figure out what car to use and never actually rally anything. That would suck, imo.

Anyway, maybe my desire to be non-conformist is what attracted me to this community more than the other one. Not everyone who disagrees with you is doing so as a personal attack and I like the realism of this site.

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

You can turn ANYTHING into a rally car.
The day I accepted this and stopped being SHOCKED at peoples stupid car choices was at Maine Forest in 2004.



Yes - for all that is good in the world - that IS a Stingray Vette. I made mention to the crew that the moulded piece of single glass was probably worth more then the entire car. They chuckled at that and proceeded to shatter that glass after flipping it a few stages in. Fiberglass bodywork GONE.

So - Anyone reading this:
Do whatever it is you want to do.

20 year old rusted out VW - SURE!
Strange 'one off' US Ford with expensive Euro parts - WHY NOT?
40K into a Group N Scooby that can afford to run ONCE - BILL ME LATER!
Silly girl car that is so cute you want to RUIN it - GO FOR IT!

The bottom line for you may not be the same for me.
I won a national championship for under $20K in a silly girl car.
Go me!

- Kris





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2007 11:35AM by webkris.

I'm confused... so you're saying a stingray is a good choice?

Do you have any pictures of it after destruction? would be neet to see.

And I agree that rally is expensive enough without 4 driven wheels.

Edit: Was the Stingray actually good at anything? Other than being a bad maserati/ferrari look a like?

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2007 11:42AM by hudson.

Sadly - no - No pics that I could find.

I'm trying to think up a top 5 awesome car list from what I have seen over the years...
Old Stingray
VW Fox wagon with Audi fender flares
MR2 with a 302 V8
Hyundai Tiburon with an EVO4 engine / driveline
Hyundai Elantra
Porsche 911 (Which is a toss up for me - as Porsche DID rally, but the struts on that thing cost more then my car.)

Try what works, or try something completely different!
- Kris

WHEN CUTE CARS ATTACK!