Front wheel drive Vs. Rear wheel drive

I am looking to sell my front wheel drive FRW car and get something else. That something else has yet to be determined so I though I would pose the question:

FRW Vs. RWD

I have 03 Sentra SER that is really fast 2.5l motor, 6 speed tranny, LSD, Short steering rack and it is FWD, I have learned to drive using left foot breaking and have enjoyed the way the car "pulls" though the corners, but I am told as I look at other TWD cars that I should stick w/FWD because it is a closer transition to AWD should I choose to go that direction some day. I have also read that RWD is the "only way" to rally.

I would like to hear from some of the drivers out there who either just have an opinion or better yet have some history with both.

Thanks for the imput, Peter.

They're both fun. Get out on stage and it wont matter. Crowds love RWD though!

rallyspecV Wrote:
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> I am looking to sell my front wheel drive FRW car
> and get something else. That something else has
> yet to be determined so I though I would pose the
> question:
>
> FRW Vs. RWD
>
> I have 03 Sentra SER that is really fast 2.5l
> motor, 6 speed tranny, LSD, Short steering rack
> and it is FWD, I have learned to drive using left
> foot breaking and have enjoyed the way the car
> "pulls" though the corners, but I am told as I
> look at other TWD cars that I should stick w/FWD
> because it is a closer transition to AWD should I
> choose to go that direction some day.

Do you have boatloads of cash sitting around? AWD crack is more expensive than 2wd crack. Be realistic. And fer cripes sake, you are a rally driver. Rally drivers can learn to drive anything!! And by the way, AWD = easy so don't worry.


I have also
> read that RWD is the "only way" to rally.
>
> I would like to hear from some of the drivers out
> there who either just have an opinion or better
> yet have some history with both.
>
I've driven both and I've had fun in both. They are different. RWD just has something special for me though. Its like rally nirvanna.

> Thanks for the imput, Peter.

AWD = Boring - it is not even rally to me, point and go and it takes your input and does what you ask. No need to adjust in turns since any line will work - even shitty ones as long as you stay out of the marbles for the most part. AWD is about racing between turns not racing in the turns.

RWD = Most what rally is about, looking at trees out the windscreen and the road out the side window. Fairly easy to adjust in the turns even when driven slow it is fun cause you toss the car about so much.

FWD = A lot of work to drive fast, funny things to do with your feet, lots of thinking ahead of the car, one must think what they want the car to do and then make it do that with little room for error as few tools to fix it when it goes wrong mid turn. You must not let the car get ahead of you...

My Rally expriances are basied on RWD Mazdog Rx2 Toyotas and Turbo Volvos, AWD in Subrats, Toyota All Trac and mostly a Mazdog 323 GTX, FWD in VW Golfs. I have driven tons of Street Cars of each type but they do not apply here.

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In the long run reality always wins.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2007 11:10AM by derek.

i learned to drive in an old 510 (not that old),
then drove an rx7 cheese wedge before driving the SAAB on gravel and snow.
now i rally the Toyota.

FWD is weird.
I'm not very comfortable with the "Huck and Chuck" method that i've seen.

RWD feels "natural".
I have an easy time controlling the car.

AWD, based on my bro's audi4000 and Jeep grand cherokee is frustrating.
it is more work to get the car pointed in the right direction, then when you stomp on it, you get this amazingly beautiful drift/slide/acceleration.
sure the drift part is great, but unless you're TOTALLY abusing the car ;-)
you just feel like you're on an under steering drive to the grocery store.

Havas has experiance with all three,
Hintz has experience with RWD to AWD

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"I put the hurt on dirt" - adam crane
http://CraneRallyCrew.com
corolla gt-s "Patches"
Op: S.S.

FWD - Huck and Chuck is a very good way of describing my driving style in the Golf, I charge up to the turn toss it in, plant my right foot to the floor and hope I was right about what I will find for the exit...

---

In the long run reality always wins.

Adam, you don't have to huck'n'chuck it to go fast. Consider the "Havspeed" method, where you slow down before a turn, turn in for a late apex, and get a good launch on the exit.

Shockingly, it's fast and you don't rip axles and shit off the car nearly as much.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

rallyspecV Wrote:
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but I am told as I
> look at other TWD cars that I should stick w/FWD
> because it is a closer transition to AWD should I
> choose to go that direction some day.

Can't necessarily agree; after driving a long time in RWD (Opels, 70's Mistu product, and Starion) the transition from the RWD Starion to a Celica All-trac was like falling off a log. I used the same maneuvers to set the car sideways, only a bit less so for the AWD Celica. I suspect that the very similar weight of the 2 cars (only about 100 lbs difference) made things like the overall braking reactions and the speed of overall rotation into turns very similar between the 2, and thus making it easy; I did not have to leanr a lot of new car behavior in addiotn to the AWD/RWD differences. So, I would add that things like changes in wheelebase and weight of the cars when going from one or another is a significant factor.

If you go to RWD (which I think you should do if possible to round out your driving education), then you will find your putting your wheels and car in very different places relative to the road's centerline in FWD vs RWD. With FWD, with the rears hanging out in the trash on the outside, your fronts better be in the main tracks. For RWD, your rears better be in the tracks, with your front end nosing into the weeds in the inside at times. Makes for a really different perspective.

Regards, and hope you have fun with whatever car you do!
Mark B.

Peter,

If you are seriously considering switching to RWD, try and spend a little time driving one on one of the practice areas. You are familiar with them, and how the S-ER drives on them.. see what's different about the whole RWD thing. Mark pretty much hit the nail on the head about the driving line.

It would be a good idea to try out a rwd (Maybe Mark Fox's?) on gravel and see how you like it before committing to a platform. It's pretty damn fun pitching it all over the place..Also can be harder to keep going straight on the straights if the RWD has any sack to it..check out some of the John Lane or Jardevall Volvo vids..

Regardless of what you choose, you'll get the knack of it quickly, as you are a good driver, and quick learner..

As far as what's better for the NW, it really depends on the weather.. RWDs are great when it's drier, but much more of a handful in the muck. What's more competitive? That's arguable.. But haven't seen a RWD on the NW podium since Hintz's were in the RX7 at Doo Wops. The last FWD on the podium was Fuller's Golf. Burress has been close lately..

my .02
B-

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Build the car, race the car, crash the car, fix the car..Repeat

starion887 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rallyspecV Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> but I am told as I
> > look at other TWD cars that I should stick
> w/FWD
> > because it is a closer transition to AWD
> should I
> > choose to go that direction some day.
>
>
>
> If you go to RWD (which I think you should do if
> possible to round out your driving education),
> then you will find your putting your wheels and
> car in very different places relative to the
> road's centerline in FWD vs RWD.



With FWD, with
> the rears hanging out in the trash on the outside,
> your fronts better be in the main tracks. For RWD,
> your rears better be in the tracks, with your
> front end nosing into the weeds in the inside at
> times. Makes for a really different perspective.

Mark, you know I've only rallied fwd, but track down any pst co-driver and they'll mostly swear that it felt like rwd.
As for lines, I say, no insist that the surface, and the shape and real world factors dictate the approach and execution of a given corner.

And on gravel roads anyway the slight crown of the road, maybe 4 degrees dicates car placement on the corner itself.
In short, use that slight crown or be slow, that means that EVERY car better be ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE CROWN, which means "inside".
I've been looking at the Real Heroes of WRC for longer than I've been doing this and that goes back to when the RWD was the norm, and there were a few annoying fwd cars like the Saab 96 beating even the mighty Escorts occasionally.
I see no difference in the lines from THOSE GUYS---they are all way inside.

Derek Bottles has a saying "reality will always win in the end" and i say our job is to use our tools in accord with "the world as it is right now".

And the inflexible thing in the equation is the world (or reality), WE can do things differently, the car has steering and brakes and WE can shift ITS weight around easily.

The World (and the road) is what it is, we must conform to it.



>
> Regards, and hope you have fun with whatever car
> you do!
> Mark B.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I think Nate got 3rd at DooWops in about 2004 on day one in a FWD car so that is the last PNW 2wd podium that I know of. In Canada however we had the top 4 at Merritt last week with 2wd.

I do not think so much the weather but rather the stage will make FWD faster or RWD faster. I think Crain Creek is a FWD stage where as Tahola is a RWD stage or at least a faster car stage same with Smith Creek and Brooklyn. Pico is likely a FWD where Stillwater and Newwatzel should be RWD stages. In Oregon the Verona Stages are RWD and the Tillimak stages are more FWD.

At some silly rally cross a few years back I totaly kicked and stomped my own ass driving a Turbo Volvo vs my Golf - there I was much faster in the RWD car even though my expriance is biased to FWD... It was very slippy as it was in a wet field. But who knows that may say more about the Med Compound Pirelli tires on the Volvo vs the hard compound Silversones on the Golf.

As someone said go have fun with the car - it matters not so much FWD vs RWD.

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In the long run reality always wins.

Ja ja you betcha!
I found the piccies Iwanted of guys who know what they're doingcornering in similar generation cars, in similar conditions and fwdor rwd.
I report, YOU decide!

Some random Finn driving a typical nice fast GpF car on a typical dayany month of the year except the period between 10 July to 15 Augusti:


Crazy man and generalallround nice guy WRC and EM Rallycrossman Per Eklundback in the day playing in the second cooolest car in the history of mankind evar!


Looks remarkable similar line and car positioning.


Derek is right,he's echoing what I heard many of the top Swedes say back when supported drivers were transitioning from rwd Asconas etc into fwd Kadett GSi
they'd say"The cardoesn take much relearning and it goes just as good,sometimes it's better (fwd) when its "knixig",but when it goes fast then the rwd might be a smidge better"
And then the interviewer asked if that might be the difference between the Asconas bigger well developed Open motor and the new cars milder GpA motor at 1800cc,better balancein high sapeed sections from more power.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Your choice about which end of the car to drive from.
Done well you can win with either.
I've driven both+AWD and prefer real wheel drive.

We have a LOT of fun in the Volvo.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

I've alternated between a 510, a Hyundai Tiburon and a B15 SE-R, so I have a lot of seat time with the driven wheels at either end.

On really tight stuff, rear drive is clearly more fun and probably a bit quicker. On faster corners (3s and above) I give the speed advantage to front-drive and the fun factor is a draw.

Rear drive lets you rotate the car and look fast even if you're only going 8/10ths. With front-drive the car doesn't handle right unless you're going balls out and backing into corners fully committed.

Besides the car forcing you to drive harder before you have any fun, front-drive's advantages come from the car's inherent stability. It's very difficult to spin a front-driver. When you overcook a front-driver and end up 90-degrees to the road, full throttle will pull a front driver straight again. Your only chance with a rear-driver in this situation is full lock, get off the pedals, and hope the heavy end gets to the end of the corner first. Not only is the front-drive technique more proactive, it gets you on the throttle sooner, so you come out of the corner faster.

That goes for just about every corner, too. Front drive lets you get on the throttle earlier almost every time.

the only NW rally I've done is Oregon Trail, but with that much of a crown front-drive seems better again. Whoever was talking about using the crown was absolutely right, but the key to coming out of the corner looking through the windshield is keeping the driven wheels inside that crown. Drop the rear wheels of a rear-drive car over that hump and you're going off backwards. Do the same with a front-driver and you'll probably come out just fine.

That said, build the one you can afford to keep running. Find your rhythm and either wheel drive is great.

-Dave

eyesoreracing Wrote:
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> off the pedals, and hope the heavy end gets to the
> end of the corner first.

Maybe start with a better balanced car. My XR has a near 50/50 wieght balance. It doesn't handle like that in the corners.

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Scott Manley
Spokane, WA
86' XR4Ti
37