what should I do?

After rallying for 3 years, first in a PGT wrx then upgraded open class light wrx/sti hybrid, I have my first child, no time and overwhelmed with debt. I need to sell the car. Problem is I can't imagine life without rally. How can I keep this thing going? I seem to focus too much on the car because I want nothing less than perfection in my race car. But it's not sustainable in the long run. I'm thinking Grp 2 but everything I know about cars is based on subarus. Suggestions???

No harsh words please... I'm in a bad way right now.

thanks

PS: A no BS answer from JVL would be appreciated.

---

Gone fishing

EZ --G-2 Subaru...Maybe.. Is what would be realy cool would be a H-class Subaru

I wish they would kill the AWD class's.. All they do is push the number$$$ thourgh the roof

David

Hazardous Toys inc

JV would not BS you..



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2007 05:09PM by Haztoys.

Haztoys Wrote:

> I wish they would kill the AWD class's.. All they
> do is push the number$$$ thourgh the roof
>

I disagree---it is just as easy to spend bags-o-cash on 2wd---sometimes even easier because you have to engineer/build/fabricate everything yourself or pay someone else to do it for you.

Burmeister's Mazda 3 build costs are probably higher than all but a handful of 4wd cars in the US. Derek Bottles said he had ~30K in his mk2 Golf which seemed to be fast but looked like a pile (no offense) and hasn't moved more than a few dozen miles under its own power since it changed ownership.

BIG advantage of Subaru---you can build a real rally car, really nicely, and really easily from bolt-on parts and credit cards.


4wd cars aren't necesarily more expensive (see randy zimmer for example) it is just that most of the owners spend a lot more than the 2wd owners. It comes down to budget, personalities, goals, and skillsets. Lots of self-selection at work here.

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

The only thing more expensive in a AWD car than a 2WD car is 2 more diffs, one more ring and pinion setup, and twice the half shafts. That's not that much more really.

But, to be competitive and able to win the class, the level of investment is huge as there are things like electronic center diffs, fancy ECU's with expensive maps and antilag, $2200 ECUs for your electronic center diff, and most importantly and negatively in my opinion, restrictors.

In 2WD, a winning car can be built for less money though because the level of build required isn't as fucking crazy because the level of traction is always a limiting factor.

If I wanted to do this for fun at low cost, I'd have built a 2.2 PGT Impreza. Can't win it's class, but you can pedal the crap out of it and have fun doing it.

If you want to win, low cost doesn't really come into the equation regardless of class. Well, unless you race Production 2WD in the US.

---

Grant Hughes

david amor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After rallying for 3 years, first in a PGT wrx
> then upgraded open class light wrx/sti hybrid, I
> have my first child, no time and overwhelmed with
> debt. I need to sell the car. Problem is I can't
> imagine life without rally. How can I keep this
> thing going? I seem to focus too much on the car
> because I want nothing less than perfection in my
> race car. But it's not sustainable in the long
> run. I'm thinking Grp 2 but everything I know
> about cars is based on subarus. Suggestions???
>
> No harsh words please... I'm in a bad way right
> now.
>
> thanks
>
> PS: A no BS answer from JVL would be appreciated.

Jeeeeze Amor, really friendly thing there you open with.
I don't talk bullshit so no idea what you're coming on like that for.
If you have misunderstood what i write and concluded its BS, then the misunderstanding lies in your preconceptions.

You're right though, a whim like "I want nothing less than perfection in my race car" is unsustainable, that's why so many people that have already done the high-end schtick are going to something more realistic, so you're thinking in the right direction.

Maybe you should try telephoning John Cassidy up in Maine, and see what his answer to the unsustainablity, high cost and boxed in nature of doing the high end approach is, just what car he's building, and why.
he is a good driver, has a good crew, done lots of US and Canadian Nationals but he's moving not "back" of "down" but over to something where he can spend less, go just as fastand have more fun.


Oh and a very wise man once said
"A Good Plan Today is Better tahn a Perfect plan tomorrow."

Chasing perfection is folly, there is no such thing as perfection.

So talk of perfection is the ultimate bullshit.

So welcome aboard but be fucking civil when you ask for advice.

>
> In search of the eternal buzz

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Man I've been doing this tuning modding racing thing all my life ..And the "perfection in the car" is way up on the list of things that bring a guy down in motor sports...I to want perfection..Yes ..In my driving.. Rallys the wrong place to seak perfection.. How could a gravel road ever be perfect..?? Just to many things out of ones controll in rally

Thats what turns me on about Rally

There seems to be some lack of clarity on my golf. I spent around $20,000 to $22,000 on it, there was about $6,000 more that one would spend if they did not try hard to find used things like motors and gear boxes sitting around gathering dust at the back of shops.

No offence taken I never gave a second thought to making it look nice, I only cared about going fast. Dave Clark might not like the comment as he put some time in making it look better but I did not give him much budget for that end of things.

I think 4wd has made ralling a lot more costly because there is a return for spending a lot more money on a AWD car, also the faster the car the harder on it to drive it down a logging road.

At some point it becomes farily pointless to spend more on power, diffs, etc on a 2wd car cause it is not going to go much faster also at a min mass of 2700 Lbs an Open car needs a lot more then say a light Honda in Brakes, Struts, and power...

Bill Lee (one of the best racing engineers of all time) once said the best way to go faster is to be lighter by not putting on extra things, besides what ever you left off likely cost money.

Wonder why the old car has not driven much?

Looked OK here:

---

In the long run reality always wins.

John; I meant to say: your typical no BS style that I'm fond of and appreciate. When I bother to check out specialstage it's to see YOUR posts. I guess my question really is, whats a bad ass Grp two car with cheap options for ridiculously short gearing, real diff, and doesn't weigh a ton.

Jeeez, how to insert tone and inflection into my posts without stupid smiley faces??????????????????????????????

---

Gone fishing

Dave!!! been wondering what your deal was...and i guess congrats are in order!

heres my 2 cents...

2wd vs 4wd:

Fuel - fuel consumption over a weekend is probably similar only difference is your WRX runs 110, a 2wd might run 94

Tires - I think this is a wash, a powerful, fun, real diff'd and shorter geared 2wd car is gonna chew a set o tires every event or 2...not much different from 4wd. I know a 4wd car spins 4 at once, but a 4wd car doesn't spin them as fast or as much.

Brakes - Mute point, if you are eating brake pads, you are going to slow! Lay off them, go faster, and don't wear them out. For instance, narinis are using PBR metalmaster pads on Brembo Rotors, Total investment about $400 bucks, they have now run 6 rallies on them, and the pads still have atleast 1/2-3/4 life left in them...on a 3100 lb car.

Prep costs - The safety side of things does not change (cage, seats, belts, blah blah blah). Only real difference, 2wd has 1 diff and 2 driveshafts...ok...2wd cars prolly eat those driveshafts twice as fast. Both have the potential to be equally as expensive, it's only what you choose. Having said that, you are going to spend ATLEAST half of what you want for your WRX go get a decent 2wd car.

On the subject of getting expensive... As derek said, yes the more money you pour into a 4wd car, the more gains you are going to get. Diffs, torque and power make a difference, and cost money. BUT...at the end of the day, the DRIVER makes the difference.

The largest gains in 2wd or 4wd start with the spacer between the steering wheel and the seat

Dave...look at the OPRC, i have ZERO doubt in my mind, and a very LOW spec open car, and i'm saying LOW spec, could win OVERALL in the right hands, no if ands or buts.

The return for the money and difference that diffs, torque and power make is really only evident at the National Level. Even then...the same car could easily top 10, and probably could top 5 depending on who breaks.

Competition is where its at man, Our region doesn't have much competition in Grp 2 really, until you get to the national level. Personally i think we had it made a couple years ago when we had like 8 P4 guys at OPRC rallies...that kicked ass.

You got a WELL built, and sorted car (aside from maybe the new motor), and it can DEFINATELY be competitive.

Look at what i did with a POS 1985 RX.

You know Subarus, you are in a "group" where everyone knows Subarus, and most importantly you have access to PILES of subaru parts...cheap.

I'm not telling you to keep the Subaru, and stay in debt. But really it probably ain't costing you much to keep it around (aside from maybe interest rates)

Maybe downgrade the WRX to keep the running costs down, throw another motor in it that'll run on a flashed ECU and 94 Octane fuel...won't have to worry much about the gear box...won't eat tires as quick. Concentrate on driving, and running cheaply. Run the events that you can...and HAVE FUN.

---

Chris

David,

FAMILY FIRST. You will never get a second chance to raise that child. Plus, you'll need to keep your wife on your side if you ever want to rally again. (A costly divorce is almost certain to end your rallying for about 10 years.)

Rallying may simply have to wait for a while. Sell you stuff now and take care of your family obligations. Then figure a way to stay involved. CoDriving doesn't cost much. Scrutineering even less. If you must keep some kind of Rallycar... I vote for 2WD Historic. Something that might even appreciate in value while it waits in the garage.

Time may prove to be even harder to come by during the next few years.

Rich Smith

Haztoys Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Man I've been doing this tuning modding racing
> thing all my life ..And the "perfection in the
> car" is way up on the list of things that bring a
> guy down in motor sports...I to want
> perfection..Yes ..In my driving.. Rallys the wrong
> place to seak perfection.. How could a gravel road
> ever be perfect..?? Just to many things out of
> ones controll in rally
>
> Thats what turns me on about Rally

Dave, that's exactly why I stress get simple stuff, build it as strong as you can find out how, get it right~~ish, and then YOU drive it.

Drive it as GOOD as YOU can. The emphasis is on the person doing a good job, sorta like "doin' the mostest with the leastest".
When I see Vatanen, Waldegard, Clark, Blomqvist, Eklund in a Escort or a Saab I know that the car is good, cause I know they did the right stuff, but what
stays with me for 25 years is "That guy can drive that car!".

Its so common when folks say "I want to do something different (or "original"" I say "Yeah? Then DRIVE the car GOOD.

Dance with the car.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

david amor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
David you already have some good advice here but I wanted to chime in because it sounds like you are in a situation that many folks find themselves in.

> After rallying for 3 years, first in a PGT wrx
> then upgraded open class light wrx/sti hybrid, I
> have my first child,

Good for you. Kids rule. I've got 4 and they are little rally hounds I have a blast taking them to races.

no time and overwhelmed with
> debt. I need to sell the car.

Well you definitely aren't the first person in this situation. Yes, you need to sell the car. Its good to see that you know that. Rally can be just as bad as gambling or some drug habit. It took me some time away to get a good grip on reality.

Problem is I can't
> imagine life without rally. How can I keep this
> thing going?

There are many ways to be involved with rally. It sounds like you just need to detox from the STI automotive version of herion and get your bearings. You also have a ton of stress in your life being a new father. Sell the car, manage the debt and be the best guy you can be. Rally can always wait.


I seem to focus too much on the car
> because I want nothing less than perfection in my
> race car. But it's not sustainable in the long
> run.

One of the main goals of the MaxAttack! program is to try and promote the idea of sustainability. We all need to find out what that means at some point. Rally doesn't just take money but it takes time, passion, determination, and Sisu. And it can right wear a guy out.

I'm thinking Grp 2 but everything I know
> about cars is based on subarus.

Don't sell yourself short. You learned Subarus, you can learn other cars. You are a rally driver, you can drive anything.


Suggestions???
>
> No harsh words please... I'm in a bad way right
> now.

PM me if you ever need a leaning post. I can talk about rally, rally withdrawl, kids, pregnant moms, and lots of other stuff


> thanks
>
> PS: A no BS answer from JVL would be appreciated.

That JV sure is a curmudgeonly old snipe isn't he Old fart who talks to XRs all day while he smokes ciggies.

>
> In search of the eternal buzz

Rally is awesome fun for me, but I also treat it like a job, mostly because I have to in order to make it sustainable. I came to the realization about a two years ago after our first event that there was absolutely no way that the team would be competitive based on the amount of money I was willing to put into racing out of my own pocket.

Shortly after our first outing I was out on the hunt for potential interested parties. I wrote up a snazzy sales pitch and went and spoke to owners of numerous shops and stores that had a vested interest in advertising/sponsorship. Funny enough, if you can make sense to them as an advertising opportunity, then it makes sense for them to put their dollars into your effort.

I'm employed by everyone that helps us out with the car. From our alignments to our tow rig nearly every part of the program is scraped, scrounged, or borrowed in order to make the weekend adventure as competitive as possible.

Without the support that we receive currently, I would just be yet another guy running on used tires at doo wops. not that there is a problem with that, I just think that if you want to go racing, you should go to compete, not to "attend."

I think that 4wd is not practical for most of the people out there employing it. Don't get me wrong you can spend just as much on a 2wd car as a 4wd car, however, 2wd is a much more cost effective way to compete. You have half as many tires you are burning up, half as many drive shafts, WAY less weight (usually) and there is usually more fuel in your tank at the end of the day. yeah, you may not be the fastest car at the rally sometimes, but I'll tell you a secret, 2wd cars have, can, and will win stages and rallies.

Build strong partnerships with local individuals now; if you want to get into the 4wd scene again later take what you learned with your locals and start pitching your ideas at a larger corporation. All companies have advertising budgets figure out how you can work for them.

Of course you could always just win the lotto, then just tell everyone to kiss your butt and spend a few hundred grand on a bitchin program and put on a smoke show.

---

-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

No money to compete? Help organize. If you love the sport, show it. That's what I did. Now that money is coming back, I'll compete again.

Potentially, you'll get _many_ more rally miles (at non-racing speeds) under your belt, and it's fun just being out there.

Cheers,
Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Hi Dave,

Good deal on the family; in reality that's the biggest and best thing most of us ever do in our lives. Not just procreating, but giving our children a good, loving home, and to help and teach them to build confidence to go out on their won and make good decisions on their own. Most of the folks in this sport had that blessing, and maybe don't even realize it!

In my book, the high $$ rally thing mainly equates with the need or desire or irresitable urge to be on the competitive end of things. There are various reasons that folks want to be there (ego, max thrills, etc.), but I can only suggest that you maybe focus more on the people part of things and less on the overall placings. If you do, I bet you will find a lot of fine folks in the sport at both ends of the field, with whom you can share your enjoyment and have a good time. IN other words, focus on the people and fun more and the overal placings less. Easier for me to say now that i"m in my 50's and having had a long time to run harder in the past.

If you do sell the STi (as it sounds like you will do), can you find a bit of time to put a cage in a simple basic car, and go out and see how you like it? You may find that it's a new challenge to drive something that is not super-duper out of the box, and build up some new skills. It may not keep you happy forever, but it might help you transition to that happy medium that you probably need to find.

(And don't get caught in the unhappy, miserable trap of thinking that people won't like you or look up to you if you are not in front or in the best machine; no one changes as a person whether in a Justy or in an STi!)

Best regards, and hope you can stick in there with us one way or antoher!
Mark B.