Bogus safety equipment

SFI bulletin 09-13-13 pdf file available here: http://www.sfifoundation.com/

Non-compliant safety equipment and counterfit labels.

good old SFI:don't want to pay for our tags? we'll test your gear to see if it meets our specs.
paid for our tags? your word is good enough, we don't need to actually check to see if it works.



(I guess it's good to see them testing some gear )

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Guarantee they didn't actually test shit.
Bet you can get these real cheaply now!

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Grant Hughes

"These products have NOT been submitted for certification by the manufacturer ... It should be noted that for any spec program, certification that products meet the minimum standards is made by the submitting manufacturer. Products are NOT certified ... by SFI."

So how do you submit for certification if products are not certified by SFI? That makes no sense. What does SFI actually do?

Do they test your products if you hire them to do so yet the manufacturer has to stand behind the results and SFI does not?

EDIT:
What About Enforcement?

Typically, there are policing provisions through contractual or licensing agreements whereby SFI may inspect the records and/or equipment of a manufacturer in order to ascertain that the product involved meets SFI Specs. Once a manufacturer has voluntarily committed to participating in the program, it must comply with the specifications in all respects.

Tim.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2013 09:14AM by TronDD.

I've heard too many stories about companies not able to get certification for their flywheel or scattershield or whatever, then they buy advertising in National Dragster, then re-submit the same un-improved components, and suddenly they get certified just fine...

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Here is what I think goes on. Someone (NASCAR, NHRA etc) comes up with a desired standard or level of pereformance. A set of numbers if you will. A manufacturer then makes a product to meet those numbers, friresuit, blow off valve etc. That product is submitted to SFI for verifiction. SFI is a non-profit I think but there are fees associated with the testing. SFI has their own labs for some stuff and use other labs all over the place for other testing. There is constant testing, looking at procedures and results. When something is found to not work as desired in the field then the product and testing procedures are both reviewed. Both testing procedures and manufacturing procedures can lead to non-compliance of a product. SIF keeps an eye on the lab procedures and certified products.

Now when a product is certified the manufacture gets to buy the labels (not much money spent on those btw) and attach to the product. Once the test is complete and certification issued it becomes a bit of an honor system. The manufacture certifies the products are built or made to the original standard. SFI does not make the product so can only certify the original performance target was met.

Sometimes a manufacture will change materials or procedures out of an innocent mistake or on purpose. Sometimes that is discovered by SFI , many times by reporrts back from the field where a product either fails in performance or is noticed by someone to be deficient in some fashion. Or you get the company who makes phony labels to save a few cents .

At least that is how I think it works or is intended to work. SFI covers a huge number of products, much like the UL label on electrical products , which also gets counterfitted regularly.

Actually, I don't believe SFI does much or any of the actual testing; the manufacturer does the testing (if their lab is certified) or has it done at a test house, and the report is submitted and reviewed by SFI for their approval. This the common practice these days in a lot of certification process of all types. From the SFI website: "SFI is responsible to monitor adherence to the Specs Program by verification of certified test reports from recognized test laboratories and performance audits where applicable as defined by the Spec procedures. " I believe that the SFI tests of H&N restraints that took place some years back was more in the vein of testing the standard, not a product.

UL and CSA are a bit different, in that they very often do the actual testing. Thay also keep up actively with product manufacturing processes with UL listed/certified product manufacturers. (There are several levels of UL approvals, depending on if the assembly is used as a whole assmbly, like a breaker panel, or used in other UL assemblies, like a simple relay.) There are often regular factory visits involved to re-certify.

I am sure that any SFI labeliing is made by the Mfr. Whether there is a per item royalty, or if SFI is just funded through memebership fees, I don't know the exact answer. Their site says "Participating manufacturers pay for development and administration of these programs through licensing fees and/or unit charges. Also, interested associations have provided grants and donations."



Lessee, here is an eastern hemisphere company bootlegging testing and certification to a US or other western standard.... Happens all too often.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2013 11:05AM by starion887.

sounds like the FIA "show me the money!!!!"

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

Sho' me the money is right.

Where does SFI get a majority of its income? From the sale of official SFI labels. That's why that document is mostly hung up on the issue of fonts, colors, etc, because that's their evidence that the labels are fake.

This has ZILCH to do with safety. For all we know, those products exceed the specs. But they don't have official - i.e., paid-for - labels from SFI, so they "must" be inferior.

Google the battle between Simpson and SFI for entertainment. It was two or three years ago.

Quote
Iowa999
Sho' me the money is right.

Where does SFI get a majority of its income? From the sale of official SFI labels. That's why that document is mostly hung up on the issue of fonts, colors, etc, because that's their evidence that the labels are fake.

This has ZILCH to do with safety. For all we know, those products exceed the specs. But they don't have official - i.e., paid-for - labels from SFI, so they "must" be inferior.

Google the battle between Simpson and SFI for entertainment. It was two or three years ago.

But the stickler there is the company used forged labels to claim a certification it doesn't have. SFI doesn't force any sanctioning body to use their labels, the sanctioning bodies request the certs, SFI, Snell, FIA whatever. I could put on a rally with independent or no insurance and require DOT helmets . It's NRS, RA or SCCA sanctioning that requires the safety certs.

Yeah, OK. But keep in mind who does the "testing" that will get said certification. We're aren't talking about a UL or Snell sticker here, where an independent lab did the testing. We're talking about something that is darned close to self-regulation with the added cover and cost of then getting some silly sticker from a third party, after paying a fee. That's what I was bitching about.

Quote
Iowa999
Sho' me the money is right.

Where does SFI get a majority of its income? From the sale of official SFI labels. That's why that document is mostly hung up on the issue of fonts, colors, etc, because that's their evidence that the labels are fake.

This has ZILCH to do with safety. For all we know, those products exceed the specs. But they don't have official - i.e., paid-for - labels from SFI, so they "must" be inferior.

Google the battle between Simpson and SFI for entertainment. It was two or three years ago.

You're right, it is really a shameful deal... I work with a guy who makes NHRA "certified' top fuel car and bike clutch systems, everything from the crank outward, except the friction material...also makes a fuel pump and the bullshit he has detailed about what it takes to get the sticker is appaling.. Its all about who you know, how's on first. He says he's expected top send full prints and materials and samples in an ordinary envelope and no assurances who sees it or maintains custody of the stuff and told me of others he know who have done this process and been stonewalled and no relies and POOOF! 3 months later one of the big names suddenly introduces that very product....somehow.

The incestuousness of the relationship between sanctioning bodies, SFI/FIA/NHRA with same people working "both sides of the street" reminds me of the tanfled mess of Government/military/industry which brought us the famous $900 hammers and 700 buck toilet seats, or to be more current, the $437 a gallon diesel that "we" pay for every gallon of diesel in Afganistan..so we can bring "Freedomâ„¢" to the godless savages there.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Simpson got busted for this years ago. Nothing new with the fake sfi tags. Doesnt Mike Hurst work for SFI now im sure he knows exactly how this went down and what it takes to get the label.

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First rally 2013
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Quote
Iowa999
We're aren't talking about a UL or Snell sticker here, where an independent lab did the testing. We're talking about something that is darned close to self-regulation with the added cover and cost of then getting some silly sticker from a third party, after paying a fee.

This right here is my beef with SFI.

I'd still prefer to see a independent 3rd party define the spec as well (ie. snell), but just some independent testing would certainly take the sting out of spending $$$$$ on safety gear and taking the manufacturer's word that it works.

On the "not sure I'm playing devil's advocate" side, I have trusted my life many time to climbing gear that's 100% manufacturer-tested. Not sure why I feel differently about racing safety gear.

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Think SFI is considered the independent lab. At the end of the day every manufacture is on the honor system. No one can test every product that comes off the assembly line, not Snell, nor SFI, nor UL or things as mundane as Coast Guard required flotation in small boats or gas pump accuracy , food inspectors . Everyone is on the honor system as soon as the inspector leaves and no one is watching. We live in a world that runs on faith, luck and hopefully integrity...but mostly luck I think. I have a much bigger issue with the whole Snell thing than any SFI procedures.