I need to vent

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stgallagher
I think the biggest problem is that event is in the middle of nowhere. Very few places to stay. A bunch of B&B's 25 to 30 miles away unless you like camping. I hate camping so if I couldn't get a room, I'd stay home.
Used to run the MG 1000 through that area, but that day started in Syracuse, NY and finished in Kingston Ontario Canada. Watertown,NY might be a better hub to work out of. It's only 30 or so miles from Harrisville.


Sean Gallagher

Not going to work, moving headquarters out of Harrisville for several reasons. We need the support of the local community or we won't have a rally (there). Many of our workers these days come from Clarkson University which is east of Harrisville (Watertown is west). I think if the promotion was done properly, there are places to stay (private cabins) near to Harrisville but what do most people do when looking for a place and have no clue, they look for motels.

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Don Kennedy

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BobOfTheFuture
On top of what Don did to help run BRS, He also lent me a HANS. Thanks Don!


As for Volunteers, I asked anyone I knew who would be interested in that type of thing. None were interested in a 5+ hr trip and having to be up there for 3 days.

Lodging up there is inconvenient. I was in a days inn almost an hour away because I booked 3 weeks before the event.

I couldn't believe the amount of volunteers that were still out there late on Saturday night. With the constant moderate (or heavier) rain I'd have thought it would be hard to pay people to stand out there, Let alone have people volunteer and stick with it.

See my post above about looking only for motels.
As to the volunteers late Saturday night, this is one thing I need to have a serious discussion with Anders about. We were very late setting up Sunday morning for the first stage (still managed to start it basicly on time) because of a lack of workers. And guess what? They were late just because, because after finishing very late Saturday night, some had to drive 30-45 minutes to where they were staying, then try to get some sleep and food, then drive back to Harrisville 30-45 minutes for an 8 AM start of their day. Remember the saying, "Think of the children". Well, "Think of the workers"! Of course the competitors also finished late Saturday night, but their start time Sunday was 2 hours later than workers. Big difference.
I love night rallying as much as the next guy. But it shouldn't be scheduled till 11 PM expecting workers to show back up again at 8 AM. There's no reason not to start 2 hours earlier Saturday and still get 3 hours of night stages in!

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Don Kennedy

Don hit on an important point when you think about workers. (And it should be obvious, but I see a lot of people not thinking about it)

The volunteers are generally out in the woods at least an hour and a half before the first competitor and most stay out at least a half hour after the last car runs... some much longer than that. They put in long days without a whole bunch of reward for it.

That's why I always try and do my best to thank the workers for coming out and helping, particularly on recce days!

Events need to look after their volunteers and that should be reflected in the entry fees. My guess is if the volunteers were asked, they'd take close accommodations over good accommodations (to a point, of course.)

I also make a habit of volunteering at events whenever I can, whether I'm entered or not. (PFR last year being the absolute pinnacle of that) Lots of times there are things that can be done well in advance of an event that competitors can do without compromising their event or getting into a conflict of interest.

If we want events to continue happening, people have to step up!

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Just had another thought. The event was originally scheduled for Sept 14/15. Don't know for sure when the date changed. I marked in in my calender as 14/15 back in spring. Only discovered in August that the date had changed. That change may have caused some conflicts for some workers if they didn't catch the change. It made an friend of mine that works sometimes have to miss the event. I also heard Sunday night that the same thing happened to a competitor, he didn't catch the date change and couldn't make it. If something like that happens again, NRS has the programs in place and should send an email to all previous workers of the event.

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Don Kennedy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2013 12:33PM by imnotcrazy.

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imnotcrazy
First off, if you're reading this and you worked BRS (Black River Stages) this past weekend, thank you (probably not many on here did).
My gripe and I'm curious if it's the same in the mid west or out west as it seems to be here on the east coast. A BIG lack of workers, particularly from the driver/co-drive contingent, current or past drivers/co-drivers. I was stage captain for one of the 3 teams of workers. At the time of the workers meeting both Saturday and Sunday, I had only 1 or 2 experienced workers (experienced meaning having done something other than marshall/spectate a side road/junction). Drivers and co-drivers at least have some clue to what happens at stage arrival, stage start and stage finish and can be trained relatively quickly and trusted (at least more than a 24 year old flat brimer). So with a lot of scrambling and taking hams with experience and people performing ham plus stage start/finish we got it accomplished. But not without a lot of hand wringing, etc. It's just getting more and more frustrating (particularly as I get older) that that group of people don't have any sense of responsibility to give back to the sport. One of these days, guys like myself are just going to get tired of it and it will be the reason they'll be no more rally!

Don, you were actually my stage captain this past weekend. I had come up hoping to do start/finish, for the experience, because I'm going to start competing next year and so that when I volunteered again, I'd be able to do more than tell people to get behind the tape. After seeing that everyone assigned start/finish on your stage had 0 experience, I just decided to go with the flow and do whatever was needed.

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BobOfTheFuture
Lodging up there is inconvenient. I was in a days inn almost an hour away because I booked 3 weeks before the event.

I was able to call and book a motel room, in Governeur, Thursday night - and they still had rooms available. It was just a quick 20-25 min drive from/to the fire hall Sat night and Sun morning.

The only thing that honestly was a bit annoying for me on the volunteer side was the fact that the volunteer meeting never started when it was scheduled to. I drove up from Binghamton, ~3hours, on Saturday morning with the intention that I had to be all signed in and ready for the meeting at 10am. I get there at 915, sign in, and then wander down to the pavillion around 10. A bunch of us are sitting around and then a couple guys head back up to the hall and find out it's actually not until 11. That's not too bad, but the exact same thing happened on Sunday morning. The paperwork says meet at the firehall at 8am, and be ready to leave soon after, but we didn't end up leaving until something like 930. It definitely wouldn't turn me off, personally, from even debating if I should volunteer again, but after standing in the rain for ~8-9 hours on Saturday that extra hour of sleep, both before I left Saturday and again Sunday morning, would have been awesome.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2013 01:11PM by zeeto.

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zeeto

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imnotcrazy
First off, if you're reading this and you worked BRS (Black River Stages) this past weekend, thank you (probably not many on here did).
My gripe and I'm curious if it's the same in the mid west or out west as it seems to be here on the east coast. A BIG lack of workers, particularly from the driver/co-drive contingent, current or past drivers/co-drivers. I was stage captain for one of the 3 teams of workers. At the time of the workers meeting both Saturday and Sunday, I had only 1 or 2 experienced workers (experienced meaning having done something other than marshall/spectate a side road/junction). Drivers and co-drivers at least have some clue to what happens at stage arrival, stage start and stage finish and can be trained relatively quickly and trusted (at least more than a 24 year old flat brimer). So with a lot of scrambling and taking hams with experience and people performing ham plus stage start/finish we got it accomplished. But not without a lot of hand wringing, etc. It's just getting more and more frustrating (particularly as I get older) that that group of people don't have any sense of responsibility to give back to the sport. One of these days, guys like myself are just going to get tired of it and it will be the reason they'll be no more rally!

Don, you were actually my stage captain this past weekend. I had come up hoping to do start/finish, for the experience, because I'm going to start competing next year and so that when I volunteered again, I'd be able to do more than tell people to get behind the tape. After seeing that everyone assigned start/finish on your stage had 0 experience, I just decided to go with the flow and do whatever was needed.

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BobOfTheFuture
Lodging up there is inconvenient. I was in a days inn almost an hour away because I booked 3 weeks before the event.

I was able to call and book a motel room, in Governeur, Thursday night - and they still had rooms available. It was just a quick 20-25 min drive from/to the fire hall Sat night and Sun morning.

The only thing that honestly was a bit annoying for me on the volunteer side was the fact that the volunteer meeting never started when it was scheduled to. I drove up from Binghamton, ~3hours, on Saturday morning with the intention that I had to be all signed in and ready for the meeting at 10am. I get there at 915, sign in, and then wander down to the pavillion around 10. A bunch of us are sitting around and then a couple guys head back up to the hall and find out it's actually not until 11. That's not too bad, but the exact same thing happened on Sunday morning. The paperwork says meet at the firehall at 8am, and be ready to leave soon after, but we didn't end up leaving until something like 930. It definitely wouldn't turn me off, personally, from even debating if I should volunteer again, but after standing in the rain for ~8-9 hours on Saturday that extra hour of sleep, both before I left Saturday and again Sunday morning, would have been awesome.

From what I was told, the Saturday meet time was listed 2 different places as 2 different times. Something I've volunteered for before which should happen, which no one has ever taken me up on, is for the organizer to get everything as current and correct as possible on the web site, then have someone knowlegable of the event review EVERY link and fact/schedule on the web site. I had spectators on Texas that referenced the spectator section of the web site which listed Texas as the first stage when in fact it was Jerdan Falls. They were pissed. Sunday morning I was there at the firehall at 7:40. There was no official there to advise or consult with (we didn't have nearly enough workers) and I tried to call several with no answer. Besides not enough workers, they made changes to the way the bikes and cars were going to run Jayville/Goose Pond and they should have been there to tell us that. Someone finally showed up around 9:15 I believe and we left to set up the first stage around 9:30 (first car was due 10:44). See previous post about not enough time between Sat evening and Sunday morning for workers/organizers.
BTW. Sorry you didn't get the experience you wanted. Sometimes it's a decision between getting accurate results (just barely enough workers) or training (plenty of workers).

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Don Kennedy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2013 02:13PM by imnotcrazy.

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HiTempguy
Making workers feel appreciated is definitely the number 1. That can be a very tough goal to achieve!

Sometimes it can be really simple. I remember getting a couple homemade cookies in a ziplock bag from a co-driver the first time I worked sweep at Mt Hood - and that was years ago. Last year at Oly, Skelly and Rudisel of the Noble Star team were handing out memorial wrist bands with Matthew Noble Marker's name on them. And there's one team, I can't remember who right now, that almost always has little bits of candy or chocolate to hand out between ATC and Stage Start.

I know there's a lot going on before and during a rally weekend, but little things like that coming from a team itself can carry a bit of weight.

Oh yeah, and not that they watch this forum, but there are a couple of the national big names that I regularly see at the banquet afterwards (even if they don't stay the entire time), and a couple that I have NEVER seen eating with us lowly plebs

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corax

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HiTempguy
Making workers feel appreciated is definitely the number 1. That can be a very tough goal to achieve!

Sometimes it can be really simple. I remember getting a couple homemade cookies in a ziplock bag from a co-driver the first time I worked sweep at Mt Hood - and that was years ago. Last year at Oly, Skelly and Rudisel of the Noble Star team were handing out memorial wrist bands with Matthew Noble Marker's name on them. And there's one team, I can't remember who right now, that almost always has little bits of candy or chocolate to hand out between ATC and Stage Start.

I know there's a lot going on before and during a rally weekend, but little things like that coming from a team itself can carry a bit of weight.

Not to be negative (and as competitors we've handed out stuff before), but many of the workers are marshals, etc, that will never get those little tidbits. It might be better to have a pot for competitors to throw a couple of bucks in to buy extra goodies for the workers to get at the awards dinner.

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Don Kennedy

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stgallagher
I think the biggest problem is that event is in the middle of nowhere. Very few places to stay. A bunch of B&B's 25 to 30 miles away unless you like camping. I hate camping so if I couldn't get a room, I'd stay home.
Used to run the MG 1000 through that area, but that day started in Syracuse, NY and finished in Kingston Ontario Canada. Watertown,NY might be a better hub to work out of. It's only 30 or so miles from Harrisville.


Sean Gallagher

see, and I'm looking for places to camp, if I could afford hotels, I'd probably be racing and not working



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2013 03:29PM by 12xalt.

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imnotcrazy

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corax

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HiTempguy
Making workers feel appreciated is definitely the number 1. That can be a very tough goal to achieve!

Sometimes it can be really simple. I remember getting a couple homemade cookies in a ziplock bag from a co-driver the first time I worked sweep at Mt Hood - and that was years ago. Last year at Oly, Skelly and Rudisel of the Noble Star team were handing out memorial wrist bands with Matthew Noble Marker's name on them. And there's one team, I can't remember who right now, that almost always has little bits of candy or chocolate to hand out between ATC and Stage Start.

I know there's a lot going on before and during a rally weekend, but little things like that coming from a team itself can carry a bit of weight.

Not to be negative (and as competitors we've handed out stuff before), but many of the workers are marshals, etc, that will never get those little tidbits. It might be better to have a pot for competitors to throw a couple of bucks in to buy extra goodies for the workers to get at the awards dinner.

as someone who goes back and forth between road marshal and working start/atc/finish, etc...

the marshals out on stage are getting the benefit of getting to see the racing, I personally don't mind not getting the candies when playing road block and when I am somewhere than can gets the goodies, I try to share them with whatever other workers are around (ham, sweep, etc)

the best thing though is to not get attitude from teams, anything and everything can get worked out LATER if needed, sometimes I work with someone new and have troubles keeping up, sometimes we didn't get all the paperwork needed and are doing the best we can, sometimes we screw up and just don't know, so the teams can cut us some slack and either wait, or if we say you'll need to report it, then stop arguing with me and fucking report it

I've heard of volunteers just getting up and leaving because of rude competitors

I guess I don't know how to stress enough that just being nice and taking things in stride is the best way to keep a volunteer coming back. All the thank yous in the world never seem to make up for the team that was an asshole to some poor worker who got a little lost or didn't have the right resources, etc, or got yelled at for asking them to follow rules.

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HiTempguy
By far, like it or not, driver's and co-driver's really do need to give back by volunteering.


Making workers feel appreciated is definitely the number 1. That can be a very tough goal to achieve!

What else are the competitor's responsible for? Do clown's have to pay to get into the circus?
-Drivers like to be involved. If they're there, they'll help. If they aren't there, it's because they're working on their cars or need to save that money to fix their car.



Yes. Emphasis this to the crusty old critters that think they are the king since they've been involved for 40 years.

One thing the crusty ol geezers who have been around know is unlike the circus ---which is for profit operation and gets thousands of paying customers------rally depends 100% on lots of volunteers...
It is like most good things done for the passion, not the profit...

And maybe in some places "they" think they're king--whoever "they" are, but most know they're just trying each in their own way to see the event come off smoothly and fun.

"Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen!"

"From each according to his abilities
To each according to his needs" _{some wise guy}

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2013 05:45PM by john vanlandingham.

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imnotcrazy
From what I was told, the Saturday meet time was listed 2 different places as 2 different times. Something I've volunteered for before which should happen, which no one has ever taken me up on, is for the organizer to get everything as current and correct as possible on the web site, then have someone knowlegable of the event review EVERY link and fact/schedule on the web site. I had spectators on Texas that referenced the spectator section of the web site which listed Texas as the first stage when in fact it was Jerdan Falls. They were pissed. Sunday morning I was there at the firehall at 7:40. There was no official there to advise or consult with (we didn't have nearly enough workers) and I tried to call several with no answer. Besides not enough workers, they made changes to the way the bikes and cars were going to run Jayville/Goose Pond and they should have been there to tell us that. Someone finally showed up around 9:15 I believe and we left to set up the first stage around 9:30 (first car was due 10:44). See previous post about not enough time between Sat evening and Sunday morning for workers/organizers.
BTW. Sorry you didn't get the experience you wanted. Sometimes it's a decision between getting accurate results (just barely enough workers) or training (plenty of workers).

Having someone going over the site would have been great. Besides the scheduling I know when I checked my assignment online, late last week, and it had me listed as start/stop, I went right to their 'Volunteer training' link to look at the pdf's in there, but none of them worked (It does look like they've been updated to the nasa site now).
Thanks, but it's not a big deal on the experience thing. I totally understood, and when I signed up said 'ideally' I'd like to do start/stop, but I would help out wherever I was needed.

Here, I'll be the turd in the punchbowl.

I am likely one of the usual competitors (raced the past two years but not this one) that did not show up to volunteer that Don is referencing. I had entered the event initially but withdrew for a number of reasons including but not exclusive to the desire not to have any sort of issues with the vehicle that would prevent me from running my last race in the Quebec series next month.

Withdrawing left my weekend in theory "open" to volunteer--yet I did not. Why? Truth is, I'm just not THAT dedicated to Rally that I would sacrifice missing my son's football game, time with my inlaws before they return to Florida for the winter, working on repairs to the house, playing with my one year old daughter, watching "Shark Tank" with my wife, etc., etc.

Yup, I'm selfish. I weighed the opportunity costs of going to volunteer vs. staying at home. I chose home. I'm honest and that's my story. No excuses, no regrets. I REALLY enjoy being able to go Rally but many times, not always, but many times, my life outside Rally takes priority. Its just the way I am and where I'm at in life and its why I'll never be a very good Rally driver or competitor and I'm comfortable with that. Flame away.

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www.nismostuff.blogspot.com

#1. I was not refering to you specifically.
#2. Most of your reasons are valid, I would have made the same decision for those reasons.
#3. Having been in the sport for only 2 or 3 years, you don't "owe" it as much as many others do.
#4. The biggest INVALID one is the selfish one. That, IMHO, is what is wrong with this country.
As I've said before. Competitors need to realize that rallies don't run without volunteers. Why should competitors expect every one else to support their hobby, and not give back to the sport?

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Don Kennedy