In defense of JVL...

In defense of JVL..

I know John comes off gruff and over the top some time, but I thought I would add a personal note here. I debated posting it, but decided, I’m strong enough to take criticism for it, so here goes… it's long.

John mentioned in another thread people coming to visit him last week; one of those folks was me. He was appropriate enough not to mention my name, as it was a private conversation, and I respect he said nothing more than “some guy from Quebec”.

Background, I don’t know JV that much better than many of you. Mostly through online chat, occasional phone calls, and a few visits while I lived in Seattle.

When I arrived in Seattle in ‘05 I needed a car, just cheap transport. John, not knowing me from shinola, said “ I know a couple machines around, come on by we’ll find you something.” He drove me (on his dime) all the way to Everett to look at a 242, stopping in Renton to look at a Ratty, and I think something else. Eventually I found a 240 that was “right” on my own, but John was a great help when I first showed up. Later when a work buddy’s supra blew its top, John arranged getting the head done, and a gasket, all at cost.

What I learned about John while I was there, was he talks way to fawking much…, smokes too much, and is a pile of broken complaining bones. But he would go the mile to help just about anyone, and he talks to your face the same way he talks online. When you see the expression in his face though you understand AND HERE IS ONE OF MY IMPORANT PARTS… when you read just words, and don’t know the guy, I bet it might be hard to not get angry, but read this

“we need a place to talk openly, especially if it's in a yakking-around-the-garage after dropping-in-an-engine kind of friendly banter”

And case in point… during that discussion last week, I think John referred to the Mighty Justy as “that stupid crazy POS thing you drive” at least 3 times, all with a big kid like grin. He pretty much told me I was an idiot for still trying, and asked what else could I drive... Then he GAVE, yes GAVE me some used inverted HD billies that we have been chatting about and told me I owe him a pack of smokes sometime. All the while scheming as to how we could make them work bitchin good...

Maybe I drink Johns Kool-Aid too much, but I come by on my own. I spent nearly 20 years coaching alpine ski racing up to J FIS level around Canada and a bit in the US. I pretty much left the sport a few years back, tired of the one-up-manship for a 14 yr old to win the next big one. What does a 14 yr old need with 4-6 pairs of skis a year, 4 days a week off school in the winter, and their parents dropping 10-20G on the sport so Johnny could be king of his hill… Hmm much like rally.

And so John and I discussed “approach” as we both felt “attitude” was too much based on the person, but the term “approach” was a softer, more societal term, and so how one’s approach at something can vary so much. And then how we personally felt it would be weird to invest SOOOO much in a sport that would never pay your bills, and was really just a fun time.

John went on to talk about how he had done in rally in years past, and how, if he could have so much fun at such a low level of commitment why were others putting so much $$$ on the line to “just have fun”. Basically saying ‘why are we upping the ante sooo bloody much when none of us are going to get rich in this sport, let alone even let it actually pay for itself’

I’ll go to the discussion about Chris, whom I don’t know from shinola and so his point of view may be radically different and for that I appologize, but the content was not centered on the individual, but rather the idea. As I said to John; with coaching skiing it time is a limiting factor, I can do more with somebody with bad habits that can actually ski, then somebody who has hardly been down the hill. So if I wanted to make a “racer” out of somebody, just enough of one to have fun, I could do it quicker with a skier then a non- skier. If I wanted to make an Olympic athlete I NEED a 10 yr old with some natural ability, but they come along 1-1000… sooo unless you are one of those 1-1000, if you want to be a 25 yr old masters racer and bash gates, I don’t really care, just know how to stand up on skis and we can have a blast. And so we agreed, in our opinion it would be better to find a cheap way to turn the wheel left and right ON GRAVEL for a while before you go to dirtfish or O’neil or where ever… if what you want is maximum bang for low buck. We also talked about sport cross-over, and how “we” (alpine coaches) would take our kids to the indoor kart tracks. We would get measurable improvement out of half to full day karting sessions in the mid season. Take the kid out of context and make them turn left and right on something else with “no power” and they got smoother on skis. My ability to drive quick has seriously declined with my reduction in ski racing, and mountain biking… these things cross over, and make great training grounds for whatever you are doing.

If you want to win the WRC, you aren’t on this forum, because you already have a factory ride in something powered at age 16, and you don’t have time to be here listening to old farts banter about how to go sideways…

As for ribbing John back, go ahead, I think he likes it, but have you ever noticed how guys that really seem to know him (like Gene) can poke fun at him, and he pokes back in a pretty mild manner. However, throw used wheel bearing grease in the face, and well, you get what you expect, used diff oil back…

When JVL generally is poking somebody in the ribs, people assume he’s mean or demented. Dudes, he loves kitties!

As someone that has met JVL in person I would have to say mad matt is right on the mark, the time I met him he spent a couple of hours explaining things like 3 hours, didn't take 15 min. to figure out that the man is smart,thrifty and helpful. Standup dude with a great experience and willing to share info that counts.

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Ask, listen-read, research, learn, weigh, execute, then let er rip

Don't you thinkit is the least bit odd that a grown man has to be defended against either myself or a few others on a forum? I'll point out that Obama, Inslee, Manson all had or have defenders...changes nothing.

If this is an online forum for only economically challenged ralliest thyen so be it, put that in the header. If it is a forum for ralliest then great. Ralliests include builders, drivers, co-drivers, workers, sponsors, crew members, families, land owners, vendors, organizers and sanctioning body members. Without all of those people we have nothing. Nobody should have to put up with JVs constant degradation of people whom he doesn't like or asks the wrong question is both hurtful and distracting. As a somewhat high ranking scrutineer and Olympus co-organizer I do everything in my power to ensure that all ralliests are welcome and treated equally. I have given away work, parts and paid both prize money and partial entry fees to help those tha need help. I work many, many hours every year to help with the sport. That is all done at my expense not even a cost of time or profit deal. John is fully aware of when he is being an asshole, he chooses to do it. He is like the puppy dog humping every bodies leg...it needs slapped on the nose once in a while.

We had a big sitdown meeting with Weyerhauser Timber a few years ago. They shut rally out about 20 years ago or so. We finally found a sympathetic ear and got some interest. During the meeting, which resulted in another "NO!!" it was brought up about the deaths in Oregon and oddly enough an incident many years ago where a local ralliest hit a timber company vehicle on their roads. It may have been the timber rigs fault and it wasn't Weyerhauser property yet it was brought up once agin. We've (organizers) have heard about it several times over the years from land owners. Practicing on someones elses roads can have very long lasting and far reaching consequences.

We either are going to have a community or a following here. Community I'm in, following ..no fucking way.

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Drew
...the man is smart,thrifty and helpful. Standup dude with a great experience and willing to share info that counts.

I don't think anybody would suggest otherwise.
All that really happens is occaisonally people call bullshit when they smell bullshit.

Matt: If you want to look at the skiing analogy, would you recommend people just take the lift to the top of the hill when they are on their first run on skis? Or maybe more appropriately - go straight to blue runs from snowplowing their way down the bunny hill?

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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heymagic
We either are going to have a community or a following here. Community I'm in, following ..no fucking way.

That's hitting the nail on the head if I've ever seen it.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

I'm not saying Jvl doesn't step over the line... Just that his reputation often gets the best of him when I think he is really trying to have a converstation, and things can quickly escalate to a gong show. We all need a reality check once in a while...

Keith, my point isn't that a new skier or a new driver should be out to fend for themselves first go. But most of us know how to drive well enough to not go in the ditch. So the move to figure out gravel at sane speed if the conditions allow, would provide some skills and understanding if it can be done in a safe setting. If student x is comfortable skiing around something rather then just turning left and right in the open hill, then getting them on the line in a loose GS course is going to be much easier, and happen much faster. If I have to take the time to explain turning before they get to the gate... well it's going be a long season.

Too bad it's so hard to find gravel to even just drive on these days...

Matt

I think a little less sensitivity and more backbone is a rallytraight BUCKUP!!
JVL hasn't always said what I want to hear I guess he has opinions imaging that, guess i'm pissing people off to by posting this

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Ask, listen-read, research, learn, weigh, execute, then let er rip

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Mad Matt F
If student x is comfortable skiing around something rather then just turning left and right in the open hill, then getting them on the line in a loose GS course is going to be much easier, and happen much faster. If I have to take the time to explain turning before they get to the gate... well it's going be a long season.

Understood, but I think we need to look at where and how the schools fit in.
I'd argue that the one-day DirtFish or TON or Experienced buddy at a sanctioned test day is much more akin to learning to carve turns than it is learning to ski the slalom or how to not fall down and snowplow.

I'd say that the vast majority of drivers on the road are barely snowplowing their way down the hill. (for many reasons I'd liken successful skid control skills to carving corners on skis)

I've always said that paying for one-on-one high level coaching (Pat Richard as an example) might get you good results but would be insanely expensive for those results. Money much better spent once you are competent and want the refinement.

I don't pretend to be a great driver, but I do know that in a day of one-to-one training with a new driver who was 'dominant' in grass-o-cross I was able to shave 4 sec./km off his times by correcting a couple of things and introducing new concepts. With practice he got even faster. He hadn't run is first rally yet, and was just starting to use the metaphorical 'edge of his skis.'

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Drew
I think a little less sensitivity and more backbone is a rallytraight BUCKUP!!
JVL hasn't always said what I want to hear I guess he has opinions imaging that, guess i'm pissing people off to by posting this

I'd say wrong on a couple of accounts. I doubt you're pissing anyone off and I'd further doubt people need to "buckup" because JV continues to push the edge of correct social behavior.

There is no overwhelming evidence that anyone needs to rally, we all want to. There is no overwhelming evidence that Al Kun is happier in his old Volvo than new commer Jeff Seehorn is in his STi. Jeff caught some grief over his choice of build right away on SS , he continued on but his online presence went away. His first event was Oregon and he was top 3, second event was Olympus and he was at the top of the pack again. People spend what they want to spend and drive what they want to drive..or dream of it. We're all different and while JV has some great knowledge and abilities he ain't everything. I've known him for 30 some years now, and we go from friends to foe pretty fast. I'd rather be friends as I actual kinda like the nguy but I'm not about to sit on my ass and let him do and say stuff that isn't always correct or proper. If a person remains quiet it is a form of agreement. If only one view is presented then it seems there is only that view.

Regarding Chris (whom no doubt is mortified at all this)..DirtFish or Oneals are both options. Expensive?? Maybe, so are DNFs and body damage. Little is learned from DNFs and body damage as the person is often left wondering wtf?? Grass-o-cross doesn't teach much as the speeds are too slow, car dynamics change drastically at 80-100 mph, peoples fear factor and reactions change a bunch at speed. Little mistakes become big mishaps in a blink of an eye. So expensive?? Individual issue I'd say. Safe, responsible education versus diminishing forms of DIY . The right answer, we all know, and it is never stupid..just as it is NOT the only answer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2014 09:52PM by heymagic.

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heymagic
Don't you thinkit is the least bit odd that a grown man has to be defended against either myself or a few others on a forum? I'll point out that Obama, Inslee, Manson all had or have defenders...changes nothing.

If this is an online forum for only economically challenged ralliest thyen so be it, put that in the header. If it is a forum for ralliest then great. ...

We either are going to have a community or a following here. Community I'm in, following ..no fucking way.

Don't you think its a bit strange that there seems to be a growing fetish with attacking John for having his point of view on things? Are you surprised that people that HE has helped would somehow stick up for him? Do you just let people harass your buddy at a bar without stepping in to defend him just because he is a grown man?

Isn't every US rally forum for the economically challenged rallyist? Didn't know that there were other forums in the US where people have unlimited budgets. EVERYONE has a budget and EVERYONE who enters an event is facing some economic challenge. Every case is different and we must treat it as that. Obviously this isn't a sport for people who cant pay their bills, but it is a sport for someone who has a bit of extra money in their pocket and wants to have FUN. We are even seeing top tier teams having difficulty funding their seasons. The fact that this IS a community allows for people to discuss their different point of views on the subject. This is starting to get disrupted by the fact that it is becoming common to attack the person (mainly John) and not the topic being discussed.

Some people are fragile or some people don't get his humor whatever it is what it is. There are some people in rally I would love to meet, have a cup of tea with and call as a friend. Some from by what I read from them. I'll stay away from. JVL is in the former category for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2014 08:47PM by Fly-Half.

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heymagic
...than newcommer Jeff Secor is in his STi. Jeff caught some grief over his choice of build right away on SS , he continued on but his online presence went away. His first event was Oregon and he was top 3, second event was Olympus and he was at the top of the pack again.

Not Jeff Secor. Jeff Seehorn. Jeff Secor is a codriver from Michigan who's been around for fifteen or twenty years and makes most excellent bräts.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

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hoche

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heymagic
...than newcommer Jeff Secor is in his STi. Jeff caught some grief over his choice of build right away on SS , he continued on but his online presence went away. His first event was Oregon and he was top 3, second event was Olympus and he was at the top of the pack again.

Not Jeff Secor. Jeff Seehorn. Jeff Secor is a codriver from Michigan who's been around for fifteen or twenty years and makes most excellent bräts.

Old people ...I'll correct my post. Thank you sir.

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Thomas Kimsey

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heymagic
Don't you thinkit is the least bit odd that a grown man has to be defended against either myself or a few others on a forum? I'll point out that Obama, Inslee, Manson all had or have defenders...changes nothing.

If this is an online forum for only economically challenged ralliest thyen so be it, put that in the header. If it is a forum for ralliest then great. ...

We either are going to have a community or a following here. Community I'm in, following ..no fucking way.

Don't you think its a bit strange that there seems to be a growing fetish with attacking John for having his point of view on things? Are you surprised that people that HE has helped would somehow stick up for him? Do you just let people harass your buddy at a bar without stepping in to defend him just because he is a grown man?

Isn't every US rally forum for the economically challenged rallyist? Didn't know that there were other forums in the US where people have unlimited budgets. EVERYONE has a budget and EVERYONE who enters an event is facing some economic challenge. Every case is different and we must treat it as that. Obviously this isn't a sport for people who cant pay their bills, but it is a sport for someone who has a bit of extra money in their pocket and wants to have FUN. We are even seeing top tier teams having difficulty funding their seasons. The fact that this IS a community allows for people to discuss their different point of views on the subject. This is starting to get disrupted by the fact that it is becoming common to attack the person (mainly John) and not the topic being discussed.

Do you actually read the stuff on here? JV is rarely attacked, rarely. Most of the fussups are in direct reaction to his rather callous and deliberate posting. He knows how to needle people. You can look at Special Stage and see him poke at me in threads I never participated in over stuff mentioned on Anarchy. He picks and picks with the intent of pissing people off. Of course someone will defend him, I have myself and I'm sure will in the future. I just won't make excuses for him anymore. He can be very charismatic, so was Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite. However there is a pretty long list of ex-friends who won't deal with him anymore but I don't want any part of that.

Let's talk budgets. DirtFish provides Olympus with some sponsorship as well as a few entries. Five Star Ford has given us significant funding in the past. Without those funds we would have to raise everyones entries or drop the event entirely. How much have you or John done for Olympus?? Zip. Now to make matters worse JV has to malign DF and its employees because they don't offer free advise to a person they don't know based on a low value incar video. They are in business, same as JV... he is a for profit kind of guy. They also have one of the flat out fastest 2wd guys working there as well as one of the very best FWD guys. Both local friends of many of us. Now if JV wants to convince Chris off line he is the messiah of rally then ok, I'm good with that. If he wants to start a BS based rant online then that becomes problematic. If someone wants to rally a new Fiesta then good on them. If they want to rally an old Volvo they are welcome also. There is room for everyone but the cost keeps rising. Road fees are very high and then we have to pay for grading on top of the rental. Without the National RA competitors paying a higher fee there would be no Oregon Trail nor Olympus. Many of the east coast events would fold also. We're looking at $40-50k break even budgets these days with volunteers spending hundreds to attend and organizers spending even more..all for your fun, not for profit.

So everyone...the whole grassroots theory is bullshit...it costs what it costs and it isn't getting any cheaper anytime soon. When it comes to event sponsors keep your friggin traps shut, without them we may have no sport. Don't for one second assume a new guy with a bigger budget gets any better treatment or requires it. If we take this to the lowest common denominator income wise we're toast. Grass-o-cross as John calls it will be what is left, at least in my part of the world. That there is your reality check folks.

Carry on...

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heymagic


We had a big sitdown meeting with Weyerhauser Timber a few years ago. They shut rally out about 20 years ago or so. We finally found a sympathetic ear and got some interest. During the meeting, which resulted in another "NO!!" it was brought up about the deaths in Oregon and oddly enough an incident many years ago where a local ralliest hit a timber company vehicle on their roads. It may have been the timber rigs fault and it wasn't Weyerhauser property yet it was brought up once agin. We've (organizers) have heard about it several times over the years from land owners. Practicing on someones elses roads can have very long lasting and far reaching consequences.

That was Scott Hartmann in the ex-Buffum FWD Audi and it was the drunk Weyerhauser employee in a company pickup truck that hit Hartmann. Yes, Hartmann was out there driving a rally car on their (open to the public at the time) roads but Weyerhauser should be upset with their drunk driving employee for that incident, not rallyists. In any case JVL wasn't even there or involved in that incident so I don't know how it's relevant here.

Back in the late 80's I used to go practicing in the woods with JVL and some other guys quite often in that same area near North Bend and other places as well. We were always very responsible and would find a dead end or something we could close off and usually went at night so it was easier to see other cars. One time, I think it was in the Enumclaw area, we came down from running some roads and parked in an open area, the cars all dirty and cooling down. The sheriff pulls up and we're thinking, "Oh shit!" He asks us what we're up to and we tell him we're exploring some roads in our rally cars. It's obvious we've been doing more than that but he asks us where we've been driving. We pull out our map and show him and he says, "Aww, that map is no good, take this one." and he gives us a better map and and suggests some other roads to try. True story.

By the mid '90's we pretty much stopped the unauthorized practice sessions because road use permissions were getting more difficult for rallies and we didn't need to make it more difficult. When Gene Nielsen was still with the DNR we could always call him up and have him give us a road we could use for practice or testing so at least we had permission.