In defense of JVL...

Yup, I wasn't going to mention Scotts name. The only connection to this discussion is that it was a long time ago and is still thrown in our faces. We all 'closed' roads and practiced back then. I'm not for one second saying it can't be done only it isn't the best option for several reasons. Heck we have to actually get insurance to cover practice days for teams running Oregon Trail and Olympus. We're lucky Green Diamond will give us roads for that. Very sad that so much of the gravel roads are closed to us. State and Federal. The good old Capital Forest of our youth is totally off limits to rally. We are a user that requires the forest to be denied to other users while we are there. That is one excuse. They (Dept of natural resources) did a big study and comprehensive use plan years ago. Rally wasn't included or considered and that is another of their reasons.

Green Diamond allows us one event a year. Their roads are now all gated, no access except for key holders. That actually helps with the event as we don't have the issues with banner guard and arrows being stolen.

All of these timber people are in contact with each other, we found that out. We had someone from one agency call another and ask then to deny us. I think that resulted in an attorneys letter from the rally community but we all know my memory ain't perfect.

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heymagic

Do you actually read the stuff on here? JV is rarely attacked, rarely. Most of the fussups are in direct reaction to his rather callous and deliberate posting. He knows how to needle people. You can look at Special Stage and see him poke at me in threads I never participated in over stuff mentioned on Anarchy. He picks and picks with the intent of pissing people off. Of course someone will defend him, I have myself and I'm sure will in the future. I just won't make excuses for him anymore. He can be very charismatic, so was Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite. However there is a pretty long list of ex-friends who won't deal with him anymore but I don't want any part of that.

You pick on him with the intent of pissing him off. You seem to try and claim yourself an innocent when you are not. The whole you calling him a psychopath and relating him to Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite is getting old. If you dont like what he says just call him an asshole at least, no need for the lower blows, no one is buying it.

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heymagic

So everyone...the whole grassroots theory is bullshit...it costs what it costs and it isn't getting any cheaper anytime soon. When it comes to event sponsors keep your friggin traps shut, without them we may have no sport. Don't for one second assume a new guy with a bigger budget gets any better treatment or requires it. If we take this to the lowest common denominator income wise we're toast. Grass-o-cross as John calls it will be what is left, at least in my part of the world. That there is your reality check folks.

Carry on...

No one doubts that it is expensive or that the sponsors carry a good portion of the sport. If there were no sponsors there would be no rally. Fact of the matter is that some people can still compete even if their budget doesn't allow them one thing or the other. I think JVL has seen people go over budget and fall out of the sport before and is trying to keep that from happening. If the sport didn't have the higher budget, better marketed teams rallyists would be screwed. The big guys pull in the sponsor money and it trickles down. Rally schools are a structural part of this economy.

Now on the micro level of things, the answer to a driving problem is not always a rally school. A rally school would surely make a driver better, but so could a few tips in a gravel parking lot (with landowner permission). Things like braking, cornering, and corner exit (low speed stuff) can be done safely. If the driver still needs help after the FREE advice then they can take part in a rally school. Also working on higher speed stuff when there.

You don't get it...it's just my sense of humor so that makes it ok. Really. I grin the whole time. My Bundy etc comments were directed at you not JV so much. Even the wackiest people in our society have friends who can find reasons to defend their actions. But now that I have your permission...hey John...you're an asshole!! (somedays)

Mr.Kimsey , chill out a bit. At some point everyone will realize that all this poor behavior (JVs, mine and a few others) is all too much and it will stop and go back to good old friends having fun in the sport we all love. Honestly.

Curious tho..just how many stage miles do you have under your belt sir??

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Morison

I'd say that the vast majority of drivers on the road are barely snowplowing their way down the hill. (for many reasons I'd liken successful skid control skills to carving corners on skis)
.'

Ding. Video evidEnce has proven >75% of north american rally drivers cant even do a proper hairpin. They desperately need some training. Having taught at a rally school before, sliding a car is not natural to most people. Gravel/loose surfaces do not make sense to them. Throwing someone into a car and telling them to go fast is recipe for disaster. I once had to give up a codriving gig, the driver just had zero concept/ability on gravel. I shit my pants at 60km/h with him.

Beyond that, what is hilarious is John attacks everyone. People attack back. At some point, you just keep attacking him because he is a miserable old fuck. Also, Gene's following quote is spot on. I've met many people in life who have followers, with little reason for doing so besides they trumpet the bullshit the loudest for said followers' beliefa

You are more than welcome to follow the religion of Junior Varsity. I will apply my critical thinking skills and whether I agree with him or not.

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heymagic
You don't get it...it's just my sense of humor so that makes it ok. Really. I grin the whole time. My Bundy etc comments were directed at you not JV so much. Even the wackiest people in our society have friends who can find reasons to defend their actions. But now that I have your permission...hey John...you're an asshole!! (somedays)tongue sticking out smiley

Mr.Kimsey , chill out a bit. At some point everyone will realize that all this poor behavior (JVs, mine and a few others) is all too much and it will stop and go back to good old friends having fun in the sport we all love. Honestly.

I have my reasons for thinking the way I do, and I am sure you have yours.

If you want my permission to call people assholes, you have it. We are all assholes, every single one of us.

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heymagic

Curious tho..just how many stage miles do you have under your belt sir??

ZERO and I don't plan on having any for some time. Did I ever say I did? If you want the reasoning behind it give me a call.

Doesn't every asshole get his right to an opinion?

So we are agreed on most things Thomas and while I don't mean to imply that you don't have brains enough to rationalize or make decisions you don't have any real ammunition to tell me what is or is not a realistic choice for driver training in a rally car. Don't take that in anyway as a demeaning or attacking post. If someone asked me how to ski downhill or perform open heart surgery I haven't a clue. High speed driving , especially rally I'd humbly guess I have considerably more experience than you so maybe don't try to tell me (with any authority) what can or can't be done in a gravel parking lot. Having said that I totally welcome your input and am quite happy to have the privledge of visiting with you here. No issues with that.

So, slow speed gravel parking lot..pretty useless. High speed practice with a good, experienced driver on gravel (whether schools or 'bootleg' ) can be very benficial. The risk must be considered and mitigated, nothing more can be done there. Hope and pray it all goes well. I'm good with that..just please don't make it any harder to get road permissions.

And while you feel a need to defend JV (and good on you for trying). I might feel the same need to defend Kieth or Adam or Timm. Fair enough??

All this needs to be taken with a large rum and coke and chuckled away. I'm probably one of the least wound, most smiley guys on here. Every day is a joy in some fashion.

If you disagree then you are a fucktard, a troll, get a thicker skin, it's all in fun, it's just the internet, it's just Gene and any number of rather idiotic saying to dismiss internet bad behavior..

Cheers!! (seriously...rally needs to be fun for everyone and we all need to pull together or cone squashing is in the future) so I'll promise you personally (cuz I think your heart is in the right place 100% ) to do better. One hour until the soccer game..hope everyone has internet access or television. Go USA!!!

Gene

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heymagic
So we are agreed on most things Thomas and while I don't mean to imply that you don't have brains enough to rationalize or make decisions you don't have any real ammunition to tell me what is or is not a realistic choice for driver training in a rally car. Don't take that in anyway as a demeaning or attacking post. If someone asked me how to ski downhill or perform open heart surgery I haven't a clue. High speed driving , especially rally I'd humbly guess I have considerably more experience than you so maybe don't try to tell me (with any authority) what can or can't be done in a gravel parking lot. Having said that I totally welcome your input and am quite happy to have the privledge of visiting with you here. No issues with that.

So, slow speed gravel parking lot..pretty useless. High speed practice with a good, experienced driver on gravel (whether schools or 'bootleg' ) can be very benficial. The risk must be considered and mitigated, nothing more can be done there. Hope and pray it all goes well. I'm good with that..just please don't make it any harder to get road permissions.

And while you feel a need to defend JV (and good on you for trying). I might feel the same need to defend Kieth or Adam or Timm. Fair enough??

All this needs to be taken with a large rum and coke and chuckled away. I'm probably one of the least wound, most smiley guys on here. Every day is a joy in some fashion.

If you disagree then you are a fucktard, a troll, get a thicker skin, it's all in fun, it's just the internet, it's just Gene and any number of rather idiotic saying to dismiss internet bad behavior..

Cheers!! (seriously...rally needs to be fun for everyone and we all need to pull together or cone squashing is in the future) so I'll promise you personally (cuz I think your heart is in the right place 100% ) to do better. One hour until the soccer game..hope everyone has internet access or television. Go USA!!!

Gene

I guess I am a fucktard (which is pretty close to a dumbass, which I will be the first to admit to being) but it seems I disagree with you on some points. You seem to point out that a gravel parking lot is no good for practice because its not high speed. Well it was also brought up that most of the US rally drivers cant put together a proper hairpin to save their ass. I don't know how big the parking lots are out west, but I can name several in the NH/Maine area that I could set up a decent lead in (nothing too fast) to a hairpin with plenty of room for mistakes. I also could get landowner permission by making a few phonecalls or maybe a letter if warrented. A simple stopwatch and a buddy and I promise you that there would be some learnin done. What the big factor is here is what needs to be learned, if it is cornering at 60+mph I agree, there is no way in hell that you would learn that in a parking lot and without a closed road there are SERIOUS risks taken. I just offer my opinion which is based on very little dirt experience, and some experience learning how to drive small formula cars in a closed off parking lot w/ permission (And I would be lying if I told you I didn't learn a fucking lot).

What I would really like seeing is for the personal shit here to settle down. If we sit here calling each other psychopaths and cultists, people are going to get turned away from the site, the sport, and the sponsors. All of our views are opinions and based on some kind of personal experience, sometimes what I offer as advise may be not my first choice but an option. Hell, if it made sense I would love to go to Team O'Neil rally school. Cant argue with the fact that it would be fun, a nice vacation, and my shitty driving ability would improve. Doesn't makes sense for me right now, so Ill stick with grass-o-cross events for fun while I finish up my schooling. But for some it makes plenty of sense, all depends on the person and the situation. Everything is an option.

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heymagic
So, slow speed gravel parking lot..pretty useless. High speed practice with a good, experienced driver on gravel (whether schools or 'bootleg' ) can be very benficial.

Spot on.

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Thomas Kimsey
What I would really like seeing is for the personal shit here to settle down.

I couldn't agree more.

Still scoreless against Belgium, and damn is it hot in New England right now.

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Thomas Kimsey
Still scoreless against Belgium, and damn is it hot in New England right now.

Guess it's time to stop coming here to avoid World Cup spoilers. Guess it's only craigslist for the rest of the tournament...

I haven't read this thread, but I need to call John back. In-laws were closing on their house today so been helping run the lab and chase around a two year old all afternoon.

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Grant Hughes

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Thomas Kimsey
Still scoreless against Belgium, and damn is it hot in New England right now.

Hot here too..yuk. Exciting game at the end. Seems like all these teams just run the clock out and then get a goal or two. I'd rather get the goals early on and head for an air conditioned bar...

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Thomas Kimsey

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heymagic
So we are agreed on most things Thomas and while I don't mean to imply that you don't have brains enough to rationalize or make decisions you don't have any real ammunition to tell me what is or is not a realistic choice for driver training in a rally car. Don't take that in anyway as a demeaning or attacking post. If someone asked me how to ski downhill or perform open heart surgery I haven't a clue. High speed driving , especially rally I'd humbly guess I have considerably more experience than you so maybe don't try to tell me (with any authority) what can or can't be done in a gravel parking lot. Having said that I totally welcome your input and am quite happy to have the privledge of visiting with you here. No issues with that.

So, slow speed gravel parking lot..pretty useless. High speed practice with a good, experienced driver on gravel (whether schools or 'bootleg' ) can be very benficial. The risk must be considered and mitigated, nothing more can be done there. Hope and pray it all goes well. I'm good with that..just please don't make it any harder to get road permissions.

And while you feel a need to defend JV (and good on you for trying). I might feel the same need to defend Kieth or Adam or Timm. Fair enough??

All this needs to be taken with a large rum and coke and chuckled away. I'm probably one of the least wound, most smiley guys on here. Every day is a joy in some fashion.

If you disagree then you are a fucktard, a troll, get a thicker skin, it's all in fun, it's just the internet, it's just Gene and any number of rather idiotic saying to dismiss internet bad behavior..

Cheers!! (seriously...rally needs to be fun for everyone and we all need to pull together or cone squashing is in the future) so I'll promise you personally (cuz I think your heart is in the right place 100% ) to do better. One hour until the soccer game..hope everyone has internet access or television. Go USA!!!

Gene

I guess I am a fucktard (which is pretty close to a dumbass, which I will be the first to admit to being) but it seems I disagree with you on some points. You seem to point out that a gravel parking lot is no good for practice because its not high speed. Well it was also brought up that most of the US rally drivers cant put together a proper hairpin to save their ass. I don't know how big the parking lots are out west, but I can name several in the NH/Maine area that I could set up a decent lead in (nothing too fast) to a hairpin with plenty of room for mistakes. I also could get landowner permission by making a few phonecalls or maybe a letter if warrented. A simple stopwatch and a buddy and I promise you that there would be some learnin done. What the big factor is here is what needs to be learned, if it is cornering at 60+mph I agree, there is no way in hell that you would learn that in a parking lot and without a closed road there are SERIOUS risks taken. I just offer my opinion which is based on very little dirt experience, and some experience learning how to drive small formula cars in a closed off parking lot w/ permission (And I would be lying if I told you I didn't learn a fucking lot).

What I would really like seeing is for the personal shit here to settle down. If we sit here calling each other psychopaths and cultists, people are going to get turned away from the site, the sport, and the sponsors. All of our views are opinions and based on some kind of personal experience, sometimes what I offer as advise may be not my first choice but an option. Hell, if it made sense I would love to go to Team O'Neil rally school. Cant argue with the fact that it would be fun, a nice vacation, and my shitty driving ability would improve. Doesn't makes sense for me right now, so Ill stick with grass-o-cross events for fun while I finish up my schooling. But for some it makes plenty of sense, all depends on the person and the situation. Everything is an option.

Hairpins are so little of what rallying is. They are...fun, but most of rally at least in the USA is higher speed stuff. Even the hairpins you do encounter you're usually braking from a 65-70+ into them. Not all hairpins are the same, braking is the hardest thing to master... so a hairpin in a parking lot is not nearly the same as a hairpin on stage mainly because the braking is different.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2014 07:23PM by czwalga.

The only way Ive found to learn high speed stuff is rally or rally school. I dont think closing some road and running it will even do what you really need. Commiting blind out of your confort zone as JVL would say to high speed stuff is hard to do any where other then rally.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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Thomas Kimsey
Don't you think its a bit strange that there seems to be a growing fetish with attacking John for having his point of view on things?

But there isn't.
Nobody is attacking John for having a point of view, people are simply expressing other points of view and at times questioning some of the things John is saying. Just like you would expect in the mythical 'bench racing' session in a garage or bar.

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Thomas Kimsey
The fact that this IS a community allows for people to discuss their different point of views on the subject. This is starting to get disrupted by the fact that it is becoming common to attack the person (mainly John) and not the topic being discussed.

Anyone looking objectively at this forum will see that John is the one leading the charge - by far - when it comes to attacking the person instead of the issues or arguments. Questioning what someone says - even attacking what someone says - is very different than attacking the person.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

From an impartial and foreign onlooker's viewpoint:
Some of you cunts are feckin mental!!
Ain't you noticed that you put more effort into bitching than helping others on the forum these days? Have you considered the impression you are portraying of yourselves?
At least make an effort to balance out the shit you throw at each other so the stench doesn't become too unbearable for those less interested in observing such behaviour.

And just because we are all arseholes doesn't mean we have to produce shit all the time....
Go and see a doctor if you can't get by on one or two dumps a day as there is clearly something wrong and unbalanced if you perpetually produce crap.

Yeah, John is feisty, as are others, but if you consider how neutral onlookers view the interactions you engage in with him it is a bit rich or delusional for anyone to be claiming the moral high ground. The pathetic threads started and sigs hint that some are antagonistic and looking for a rise.
Stop acting like immature spoiled kids spoiling the party for everyone else.

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Disappointingly not yet a Jackass