changing my name?

so basically what you are saying is that subarus suck and we should all be rallying volvos and fords if we really want to win? if that is indeed what you are saying, then please tell me those volvo 240s weigh a hell of a lot less than what they look to weigh.

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WRCWRXSTI
so basically what you are saying is that subarus suck and we should all be rallying volvos and fords if we really want to win? if that is indeed what you are saying, then please tell me those volvo 240s weigh a hell of a lot less than what they look to weigh.

www.turbobricks.com

and they aren't all that heavy... they just look terrible, and I dont really like the way the motor sounds :hide:

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WRCWRXSTI
so basically what you are saying is that subarus suck and we should all be rallying volvos and fords if we really want to win? if that is indeed what you are saying, then please tell me those volvo 240s weigh a hell of a lot less than what they look to weigh.

Subaru's don't suck. But yes, if you really want to win, you should not be rallying a Subaru, or any AWD car for that matter. Unless you have a decent source of the money it takes to successfully campaign an open class Subaru you will not win. Sure, you might do okay at regional events here and there where you are closer to the same terms today, until the other guy goes and spends even more.
If you are okay with Open Light, that's a decent class for Suby fanatics that want to rally. Scott's open light that we ran at 100AW weighs about 125 pounds more than my Merkur did but has about half the power and a very real limit on power and torque.
In my opinion though, yes, everyone should be rallying cheap 80s RWD cars. I literally didn't spend more than two hours working on my rally car between March 2008 and September of 2009. I did four events and two long test days in that time. RWD is cheaper, easier to build strong, and reliable.
I bet Sean would say about the same amount of work needed done on his Merkur over the past two seasons. When I first met Colin McLeery he said he did like 23 stage rallies without ever doing anything major on his Merkur. When he finally had to do something, he popped in a V8 and has been continuing on since. Matt Smith could probably say the same.

I always tell people, if you really like working on cars and fixing things, rally a VW or Honda. If you want to rally, park, rally, build a RWD Volvo, Merkur, Toyota or BMW.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2011 04:48PM by NoCoast.

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WRCWRXSTI
so basically what you are saying is that subarus suck

No, try and not jump to extremes. A little nuanced thinking please.
I said clearly that there is nothing inherent in the car that accounts for its particularly puzzling popularity.
Inarguably, with enough money thrown at them, again and again and again and again, they obviously can go pretty good. In fact there was a well know saying in the GroupN world a few years back when Toshi Arai was doing a few results, it goes like this
"Oi! Howdya beat a 25,000 quid Evo, Guv?"
Guv'nor: "wull Idunno, 'ow do ya beat a 25,000 quid Evo, Dai?"
"well, guv 'at's easy! You buy a 125,000 quid Impreza".

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and we should all be rallying volvos and fords if we really want to win?

I've become more and more convinced looking at the rest of the world where rally have always thrived that we have continued to think wrongly---as Americans tend to do in complicated situations (see just abvove where you condensed so reasoned ideas down to "oh so you're saying Subies suck?" that the solution is in larger expenditures of money on hardware.
And if the old MkI and MKII Escorts and Corollas and Starlets and Asconas have been the flowerbed out of which an endless supply of TOP WRC level drivers has blossomed from--and contrast that with USA and Canada not producing one single driver since John Buffum over 25 years ago who can get within 4 seconds/mile DESPITE essentially limitless budgets spent on extremely high spec cars, THEN maybe we should "get back to the Future" and use more or less similar cars, just scaled up for out wider, insanely faster roads.
The 240 is just a big MkII Escort with a nice big motor you cannot break.
The Xratty is just a big MkII Escort with IRS, with a big motor you can't break.

Solid, selectively well built MkIIs are good enough for the whole rest of the rally world (most of which are on roads much much much narrower, and curvier---so the shorter, narrower Escort is in fact at an advantage), a slightly bigger one should---and has been proven many times here in the PNW--IS good enough to beat virtually every turbo 4wd car out there---except 2-3 million dollar budget ones.

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if that is indeed what you are saying, then please tell me those volvo 240s weigh a hell of a lot less than what they look to weigh.

Well all cars are junk so it's just a question of what kind of junk they are, and what they cost and IF its possible for a normal human to afford to build a "pretty darn good" car---in other words, availability of decent strong parts.

I'm saying further that it ain't the 4wd that is so advantageous in the Subie or Evo or in my AWD Cosworth.
Its a torquey motor mated to a set of "pretty darn good" gear ratios and "pretty darn good" final drive ratio, and good brakes, "real damn good" brakes on the nicer ones that is the key elements in the package.

The cost of the EVOs and Subies parts--aside from the car, the parts average 3 to 10 times as much as equivalent parts for the 240 or Xratty, both which are better balanced cars.

Here's some actual weights at an event back in the 90s:
(wrong language and weight in kg but whatever)



National class:

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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aj_johnson

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WRCWRXSTI
so basically what you are saying is that subarus suck and we should all be rallying volvos and fords if we really want to win? if that is indeed what you are saying, then please tell me those volvo 240s weigh a hell of a lot less than what they look to weigh.

www.turbobricks.com

and they aren't all that heavy... they just look terrible, and I dont really like the way the motor sounds :hide:

You should hear when they've lost a pound and a quarter per hole of reciprocating weight. a weeeeeee bit snappier.
I make the parts to do that.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

thank you! that was huge eye opener for me. this is the kind of information i came here looking to find. but im curious about RWD. ive always been under the impression that it is much harder to drive than fwd. by spending a good amount of time messing around on some back roads in my 95 fwd impreza, ive gotten a pretty good feel for left foot braking, controlling the car in a slide, and weight transfer. I was planning on buying a 1984 VW Rabbit for about 5 grand, about 6 months from now and entering some regional events here in the NW. would you recommend buying a RWD car instead and learning the ins and outs of that and actually rally a RWD car as my first rally car? honestly though, ive been having a hell of a time finding any rally cars for under 5 grand in the PNW lately. is 5 grand a reasonable budget for my first rally car?

Five grand is a reasonable starting point to build a rally car.

I personally don't like working on cars enough to rally a VW.

RWD is different. It's not what us post 1980 generation are used to by and large. I can watch in car of a hill climb of me in my Merkur and Mark in his Subaru. Literally taking the same lines because I probably have more driving time in his car than in my own.

RWD is way more fun. I actually think I am faster and closer to the top potential in my car than in his at our test track now. Or at least I was two years ago before I overcomplicated my rally career by trying to do things properly and tearing down my car.

FWD is fun and challenging. There are things, gear boxes, gear rations, final drives, differentials, and packaging of engine that are inherently more difficult and expensive though in a FWD car.

dont know what your stance is on the subject, but ive been warned by many to NOT build my first car, but instead to buy. and a month or so ago i used to have a word document where i totaled up the cost of every piece of equipment i would need to build a rally car, from the seats and harnesses, to the fire extinguiser, to the cage, and so on... and it turned out to be about 14 grand, including the 4 grand for a car i picked the cheapest seats, the cheapest price for a cage i could find, everything...

Problem was in the $4k for a starting car and what spec you were going with. I paid $750 for mine. Could have just fixed the boost leak and gone and rallied it if I didn't foresee the need to overcomplicate everything and delay my time to stage. I also did a spreadsheet but I went top highest spec. It was 25-30k to build a Merkur that would not lose if the driver was good. Same thing for an Impreza became way way over $50k quickly.

I figured we could do starter Open Light kits for around $7k. That includes everything. We sell you the shell, cage, skid plates, everything. JVAB suspension, stock engine and trans. We'd check it for leaks and maybe have an option for a timing belt, pulleys, water pump, and oil pump seal replacement. Porterfield pads, OMP or Sparco seats, belts, extinguishers, first aid kit, spill kit, etc. No paint or any body work or any of that stuff.

We're doing a 2 door GC cage sometime around September. We have three builder four door Impreza shells already. I check almost daily for more.

Sean built his Merkur for something like $8k. I have another Merkur shell lined up already. On the look out for a BMW Compact to start prepping as well.

The problem with my car and possibly many old cars was that the wiring harness was toast. Every wire and connector was insanely brittle. Literally touch a plastic connector and it would break. We are making a new chassis harness that will be rally ready for it now. We are also going to make it replicable so that we can offer it to other rallyists that want to build a Merkur. Three goals. Minimal, simple, and reliable. Engine harnesses are already out there. I wonder how Josh's TDI wire job is going.

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WRCWRXSTI
thank you! that was huge eye opener for me. this is the kind of information i came here looking to find. but im curious about RWD. ive always been under the impression that it is much harder to drive than fwd. by spending a good amount of time messing around on some back roads in my 95 fwd impreza, ive gotten a pretty good feel for left foot braking, controlling the car in a slide, and weight transfer. I was planning on buying a 1984 VW Rabbit for about 5 grand, about 6 months from now and entering some regional events here in the NW. would you recommend buying a RWD car instead and learning the ins and outs of that and actually rally a RWD car as my first rally car? honestly though, ive been having a hell of a time finding any rally cars for under 5 grand in the PNW lately. is 5 grand a reasonable budget for my first rally car?

First, bless their little (short but tall) hearts, Rare-bits are cute. Jus skritchy scratchy 'em behind the ears and pat their bellies, that the best thing to do with them.



If you maybe thinking of the CAR, then come over here.



Look initially, as junk POS fwd street car vs junk POS rwd it really makes no difference since both are PROBABLY very poorly balanced, soft, slow steering, underpowered junk.

And conversely, as "typical noob spec' rally cars, it doesn't make a lotta difference because YOU, you either way too cerebral timidness, means you dare not gassit, or maybe you're
and won't back off and constantly near stuffing, ditch-plowing, , roasting the tires in too low a gear...

When it makes a difference is when you decide to TRY TO DRIVE HARD AND FAST.

Then it makes a difference if the final drive costs 15-45 bucks or $875, and if you can afford a closer gearset--I didn't say "close ratio" I said a closer, which for a Borg warner T5 costs $380 but for a Golf---there is none so straight to "close ratio" for $2400.
Same with a LSD: 3x or more


And then: what if you want to make the shit stronger? Stronger not just for all the manly powerzez you're putting down, but for staying kinda straight when you get stupid ---as everybody does---and whack things.

You're nearly SOL with anything FWD, except maybe some slightly "not quite so lame" CV or something.
RWD, simply find a stouter axle that is available --cheaply---with the ratio you want (hint: Toyota pick up!) ZOOOOOOOOOOooooooOOOT!!! on some brackets and hook 'er up.
Strength upgrades are easy and affordable and within the skill set easily accessible in rwd vs FWD search, listen to BS claims (dude, I used these in my 11 second car that is all stock motor with NOZZZ!!! They good for FIVE HUNDRED HORSE POWERZ!!!), pay a shit-ton of money and break the junk in 4 stages.

I don't know, maybe you have 4-6K laying around for just gearbox upgrades, or will in a year or so. Me, I can't afford that shit but I can afford $380, and I got a whole LSD axle for my car with a good ratio 4.3, for $29.75 at Tacoma Pull-a-part.

Right now my friend William of TSS Fab is doing a cage for Jason "Frumby" who lives up on Whidbey. Get hold of William, and say Yo Duderz, bend up an extra cage or two for one of those fawkin Xratties you're selling me for sooooooper buddy price---like what John found 'em for ya price."

Start low, 200-400 for the car.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Okay john, I think im starting to get it now. i just wish i had found this forum before specialstage... no offense to the folks at ss, but i should have been slapped in the face and given an ice bath of truth a long time ago

So, Grant. you say you can do an open light "kit" for around $7k. does this mean you sell me bent tubes, shell, and everything else separate, and i build it? or a caged car and i have to build it? or you build an entire car for $7k?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 01:28AM by WRCWRXSTI.

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NoCoast
When I first met Colin McLeery he said he did like 23 stage rallies without ever doing anything major on his Merkur. When he finally had to do something, he popped in a V8 and has been continuing on since.

Halley just put up a gallery on FB with some pics of McLeery from ojibwe way back in 99. pretty sure that is one of the very few cars from that event still going strong. had a pick of malik's volvo too in there.

that was back when shadbolts pgt class impreza was one of two out there (some guuys from chicago had the other one), eklund was building the yellow car, tiburons were on top, sprongl was still running the audi, entry fees were cheap, the cheapest way to get AWD/Turbo on stage was a talon/eclipse and SCCA was trying to keep old cars out of the national events.

oh, and there was at least 58 cars entered. and that was a small event.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 04:18AM by Greg Donovan.

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WRCWRXSTI
Okay john, I think im starting to get it now. i just wish i had found this forum before specialstage... no offense to the folks at ss, but i should have been slapped in the face and given an ice bath of truth a long time ago

SS is the place to go to talk about events, look at lots of pictures and videos and see what is going on around the US. oh and bitching, lots and lots of bitching. which can also be entertaining as well.

Anarchy is a great place for awesome tech, slaps of reality and very entertaining conversations. however, if you get butt hurt easily anarchy may not be the place to be.

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WRCWRXSTI
So, Grant. you say you can do an open light "kit" for around $7k. does this mean you sell me bent tubes, shell, and everything else separate, and i build it? or a caged car and i have to build it? or you build an entire car for $7k?

The latter. Everything is installed on the car.
That's at least 9-12 months away though before we really have the time to offer these and start building them. I have to finish my Master's degree by December before I can consider business ventures that take time and focus.

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NoCoast

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WRCWRXSTI
So, Grant. you say you can do an open light "kit" for around $7k. does this mean you sell me bent tubes, shell, and everything else separate, and i build it? or a caged car and i have to build it? or you build an entire car for $7k?

The latter. Everything is installed on the car.
That's at least 9-12 months away though before we really have the time to offer these and start building them. I have to finish my Master's degree by December before I can consider business ventures that take time and focus.

ok well ill see where you're at in about 8 or 9 months. i still need to save up some money, go back to college, and basically get my life in order. i figure that will take me a good 6-12 months.