john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Junior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/
A little inconvenient fact which goes counter to what people i regard as idiots have been saying is a immovable fact.... Now I know that the bulk of the people who espouse idiot right-wing bullshit have never worked in any other economic system, and with near certainty I know they know no US History except comic book level stuff in 4th Grade or AM Talk radio.. And I'm fairly certain nearly none has any idea of US Labor history---much less any even superficial awareness of any other country's labor history, But here's some stuff to make you think.....
Verrrry Interestink, Smart...... * IG Metall...German: Industriegewerkschaft Metall, "Industrial Union of Metalworkers'" is the dominant metalworkers' union in Germany. The article says its the equivalent of UAW. Wrong, the smarter countries in Europe didn't go for the fractured craft union models but whole wide areas, Metal workers of all sorts...not just autoworkers.... Interesting read even if they sometimes quote wages and sometimes total wage costs--ie employer contributions too. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Pete Pete Remner Junior Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
I thought they were profitable by using imported Eastern European labor and charging out the ass for crappy cars that fall apart in three years.
Could be wrong about the labor thing, but it's a standing joke that no new VW is completely functional, and they only get worse over time. Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2011 05:23PM by Pete. |
HiTempguy Banned Senior Moderator Location: Red Deer, Alberta Join Date: 09/13/2011 Posts: 717 Rally Car: 2002 Subaru WRX STi |
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NoCoast Grant Hughes Super Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
Are you kidding me. Average wage for US autoworker is $70K?
German ones are almost 140K average? I want to see how they come up with these numbers. MB and BMW both build some parts of their cars in the US. Auto industry accounts for 1/7th of workforce in Germany. How much do they pay the non-union temporary work force? One article I found from 2008 said the downturn could result in the loss of 20,000 auto industry jobs and 80,000 temp jobs. Also said BMW eliminated 8000 jobs, 5000 of those temporary. So the only logical thing in my mind, is that all the shit jobs are being done by temporary workers who are probably getting paid shit, while the union cush jobs are held by the skilled workers and engineers. But more likely what is happening is the same thing that happened back when the auto industry got it's bail out and all the Tea Party douches were in an uproar and said, "But they make $70 an hour at these factories! How can we justify bailing out an industry so corrupted by unions!" "Analysts came up with it by including the cost of all employer-provided benefits--namely, health insurance and pensions--and then dividing by the number of workers. The result, they found, was that benefits for Big Three cost about $42 per hour, per employee. Add that to the wages--again, $28 per hour--and you get the $70 figure. Voila." So without knowing what their methodology is, I call bullshit. In 2009 they exported 3.34 million cars. The rest must be made elsewhere. The industry has a workforce of about 723,000. The average is probably even more misleading as how many corporate salaries are being incuded? It's probably safe to assume that 50% of their manufacturing and lower paying jobs occur outside of Germany as well. Grant Hughes |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Junior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Grant, slow down. or learn to read better. It said the average wage for Metall Union workers was 67/hr with salary, and benefits (and all the other stuff; unemployment insurance, disability insurance etc) and that that $67 is "twice" what the "average" (you know what that means---well maybe the writer does) US autoworker wage.
And if you read the link you'd see that some in the Blighted Zone of USA pay "At Volkswagen’s Chattanooga plant, the nonunionized new employees get $14.50 an hour, which rises to $19.50 after three years." Thats about $29,000 to begin with and rising to just under $40,000. Also, there are no shit paying jobs in Germany, or most of civilised Europe. Pay is "average" or nobody will take it. And IG Metall in Germany, Metalarbetarna in Sweden set the standard or target... Sure methodology is highly questionable, but thats just getting to the infinitesimal %, the main thing is US Corps hiring professional whores in the halls of legislatures and other professional whores in front of cameras have whined for decades that they need to lower US wages ( cough cough while raising executive compension to the average 456 times the average workers wage) and a core 15-23% of idiots buy their lies---and vote accordingly. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Ken Rogers Ken Rogers Professional Moderator Location: San Francisco Join Date: 08/17/2008 Age: Fossilized Posts: 45 Rally Car: All of the below ------> 71 145S-72 ES-82 245 GLT |
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Vorpal_Rally Stinkfinger Lipschitz Junior Moderator Location: Uranus Join Date: 02/17/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 325 |
In relation to the article John posted, it talks about how labor & mgmt work together to solve challenges raised by one another.
A friend of mine worked at the Ford plant here in St. Louis and when it closed down, he was offered the opportunity to go to a different plant in another city. He chose to go to Detroit and work at the plant that made Mazda 3's I believe. He tells how when he and his fellow St. Louis colleagues got there, the in place workers would work with management to solve problems without resorting to more formal "this is/ is not" in our contract, we are/are not going to do it that way. The plant was quite efficient. When the St. Louis folks showed up, they started raising a ruckus over how their fellow workers were not following the contract yada yada yada. Efficiency went down and animosity between management and labor went up. So yeah, issues can be hashed out and everyone can be happy. But when a wrench gets thrown in the works, people suffer. My friend, got bought out by Ford, moved back to St. Louis and now works selling cell phones at the mall. Also, did anyone take into account all the taxes Germans pay vs. what a U.S. worker pay? One figure I saw said a rate of up to 42% for the income stated. I correlated this from two different sources. It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion. William Ralph Inge TANSTAAFL |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Junior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Lee there's lots of problems with the article but you got the main reason why I posted it.... Funny how on several forums the American boys all fixate on the "exact dollar" type shit, the typical superficial materialist things that they are going to "prove" its wrong (by a few% and therefore it's totally invalid---typical American boy dominated forum shit) But the points about a mechanism to countact the "race to the bottom", and about the Union fighting (all thru the 50s and 60s) to get a law allowing Union or workers representitive to sit on the board of directors (or equiv) was right over the most guys head... If you have time the comments section is as good, or better than the article icluding comments from actual live Germans who poo poo any "Nationalistic" rationale in their choice of buying German products, they say stuff like "When I am going to buy a car it is to keep, so I consider the quality, the cost of running it, the cost of repairs over the longer term".... John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
derek Derek Bottles Godlike Moderator Location: Lopez Island/ Seattle WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 853 Rally Car: Past: 323, RX2, GTI. Next up M3 ? |
People never seem to understand that the dollar per hr of a wage is not important, the dollar amount per unit of production is very important.
Unions and management should agree far more often and be in conflict far less often as their long term health is really fairly closely matched. Unions tend not to be all that happy when the airline, auto maker, etc go out of business and companies need to focus on productivity not wages. In the long run reality always wins. |
wildert Brian Klausen Mod Moderator Location: Denmark Join Date: 03/21/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 388 Rally Car: VW Golf GTi 16V |
We have the same system in Denmark. Actually even more well developed (some would call it less... But nevertheless it's rather unique....).
The government, the union and the employers organisations get together once every second year, and they negotiate a framework for salaries, benefits, etc. They reach a compromise based on the workers demands for raises, more benefits, etc., the employers need to be competitive and keep cost down, and the governments need for the state to run smoothly, keeping the economy rolling, etc. Rarely the government intervenes much, but it has happened at times when an agreement couldn't bee reached by the two other parties on their own. These two parties always know that the government can legislate the next 2 years deal if they can't agree themselves, so most times they figure it out. In my time we've had 2-3 major strikes that I can think of, and only once did the government pull the 'cause I so!'-card. It works pretty well, and is know as "The Danish model". Also, that whole "working WITH the management thing" is really something where US and Denmark differs. And I've seen it first hand working with americans here n Denmark. They tend to NEVER question the boss, no matter how moronic he may be, and no matter how much the boss would benefit from getting and listening to an oppinion of somebody actually doing work. Granted I'm not exactly in assembly or production type of job, but still... Bosses aren't always right, and here in Denmark it is accepted and expected and RESPECTED for an employee to speak up about things that could be changed to better this or that. In fact it is encouraged. I don't see the americans I have worked with, using that possibility as much... They've been more into the taking shit game, and the bitching about it. I can totally understnad why, if theyre used to getting kicked on the street for that, but it's hard to look at as a consultant. Brgrds Brian |
A1337STI Alex Rademacher Elite Moderator Location: Reno,nv Join Date: 09/10/2007 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 686 Rally Car: 93 GC with an 01 RS swap! |
Some companies encourage that, some don't.
Usually with in the same company some managers do so more than others. my last job i went from an open door policy boss. who you could always go to and point out how we could be doing something better. to a Closed door, chain of command only, we will tell you What your opinion is type of boss. |
derek Derek Bottles Godlike Moderator Location: Lopez Island/ Seattle WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 853 Rally Car: Past: 323, RX2, GTI. Next up M3 ? |
Then again cars are a small part of the US economy and not too many people would say that cars are the part of the US economy that is innovative, forward thinking, and the path to our future.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/the-other-reason-europe-is-going-broke.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=magazine In the long run reality always wins. |