Debt, Deficits and Modern Money Theory

I read a bunch of economics blogs, but this shit blew my mind:

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/p/modern-monetary-theory-primer.html

It's not a particularly difficult read, but it's long. If you want to know how money really works, how the government really spends you need to read it. And if you're worried about the deficit and "borrowing from China" or "saddling our kids with debt" it will hopefully erase those unfounded fears.

GIVE ME YOUR SUMMERY, if it is that mind blowing i will look into it.

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Nubby
And if you're worried about the deficit and "borrowing from China" or "saddling our kids with debt" it will hopefully erase those unfounded fears.

The only ones worried about that are the retards that watch too much Fox News and are being effectively brain washed into caring about shit that is equivalent to a rounding error as opposed to caring about real concerns.

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Grant Hughes

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NoCoast

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Nubby
And if you're worried about the deficit and "borrowing from China" or "saddling our kids with debt" it will hopefully erase those unfounded fears.

The only ones worried about that are the retards that watch too much Fox News and are being effectively brain washed into caring about shit that is equivalent to a rounding error as opposed to caring about real concerns.

Yeah like a certain rally driver pontificating on some car forum talking about how he was in line and the urban gangbanger was filling up his shopping cart with lobster and steaks paying with Food stamps and out in the parking lot loading it into his Cadillac SUV.....pddly money wasted on welfare, and 40=% of all Federal spending going to (corporate welfare) for "Defense"

(Don't ask a) what he was doing in "one of those neighborhoods where there were actually dark people, and b) if he was in line, how did he know what kind of blingin SUV the "mud person" was stylin in? and c) why have
we read verbartim accounts on thousands of other whack-job forums?)

Further blather of that sort from Rush Jr.:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=268517

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
Yeah like a certain rally driver pontificating on some car forum talking about how he was in line and the urban gangbanger was filling up his shopping cart with lobster and steaks paying with Food stamps and out in the parking lot loading it into his Cadillac SUV.....pddly money wasted on welfare, and 40=% of all Federal spending going to (corporate welfare) for "Defense"

(Don't ask a) what he was doing in "one of those neighborhoods where there were actually dark people, and b) if he was in line, how did he know what kind of blingin SUV the "mud person" was stylin in? and c) why have
we read verbartim accounts on thousands of other whack-job forums?)

The guy that bought all the steaks and shit was actually arrested for food stamp fraud. He was buying all that stuff with his food stamps and turning around and reselling it. It happens and guess what, the guy got arrested for it thanks to some smart mathematicians/computer scientists/statisticians like me.

It's like the surgeons that kill patients. Yeah, it happens but it's not the norm.

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Grant Hughes

I am always reminded of Hayek's quote on economics;

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design." F.A. Hayek

And the folks that write that are Keynesians. I have to ask, do you read Hayekians as well?

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It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

Started reading... already have questions so just for fun lets get those answered before I continue.

one of the fundamentals here: One’s financial asset is another’s financial liability

This makes sense in theory, however in practice there is very rarely a fair trade. one of two persons entering a transaction will always be the winner in a transaction (perhaps my understanding of capitalism is twisted but is this not a very dumbed down part of capitalism?). Therefore must wealth or acquistion of assets net something other than 0 regardless of the medium used to transact?

On the governement debt issue. Yes debt is good! However a broken dam will eventually hold no water. This is the basis of my problem with the government, too many instances of mishandled projects/money and no plans, or measures taken to correct such. It's like a garage with too many projects, eventually one must get rid of some or fail at all of them. Until the government can correct flaws in existing programs I see no reason to spend willy nilly, on new issues. (ie healthcare) I don't trust em, and trust is earned. They have little track history in social project success, and I take huge offense to someone telling me I'm not the appropriate party to be taking the lead in my families well being.

Theory is great until practice fails.

Am I missing the point?

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aj_johnson
On the governement debt issue. Yes debt is good! However a broken dam will eventually hold no water. This is the basis of my problem with the government, too many instances of mishandled projects/money and no plans, or measures taken to correct such. It's like a garage with too many projects, eventually one must get rid of some or fail at all of them. Until the government can correct flaws in existing programs I see no reason to spend willy nilly, on new issues. (ie healthcare) I don't trust em, and trust is earned. They have little track history in social project success.

Healthcare is not a new issue. Medicare and Medicaid have been around for plenty of time and there is plenty of track history in most other developed countries of the success of social projects.
The problem with your garage and too many projects analogy would be like saying you have a 2400 square foot shop with four or five rally cars in it that are in various state of repair. On a side cabinet you have a few other fun side projects that you have started on and spend a little bit here and there on. Making bowling shoes, a gimble mount for in car, a hand held gimble mount, pin stands, gussets, etc. Now let's say you need to downsize and make some space. Focusing all your effort and tossing out that box of small parts to make a camera mount will have no effect on the shop space, it's the torn apart Merkur and Impreza that are taking up all the space but those monsters are too big too tackle and too important to scrap and too far along to morph into a BMW. So you convince everyone that the real problem is that stupid gimble mount and all they have to do is bring you in to fix the problems when in reality, the 'problem' takes up a few square inches on a six level shelf.

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Grant Hughes

Currently the problem in DC is that we've too many Politicians who've helped themselves to too much power.

The Constitution was very deliberately written to limit what the Federal Government can do.

They've gone well beyond what they have any business doing.

The States can do the rest.

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

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aj_johnson
Started reading... already have questions so just for fun lets get those answered before I continue.

one of the fundamentals here: One’s financial asset is another’s financial liability

This makes sense in theory, however in practice there is very rarely a fair trade. one of two persons entering a transaction will always be the winner in a transaction (perhaps my understanding of capitalism is twisted but is this not a very dumbed down part of capitalism?). Therefore must wealth or acquistion of assets net something other than 0 regardless of the medium used to transact?

On the governement debt issue. Yes debt is good! However a broken dam will eventually hold no water. This is the basis of my problem with the government, too many instances of mishandled projects/money and no plans, or measures taken to correct such. It's like a garage with too many projects, eventually one must get rid of some or fail at all of them. Until the government can correct flaws in existing programs I see no reason to spend willy nilly, on new issues. (ie healthcare) I don't trust em, and trust is earned. They have little track history in social project success, and I take huge offense to someone telling me I'm not the appropriate party to be taking the lead in my families well being.

Theory is great until practice fails.

Am I missing the point?

Well, let's say I buy a suspension from JVAB. I pay him his going rate. He receives what he determines is adequate compensation for his time, effort and material cost(I am assuming he's turning some kind of profit.) In return, I've received a nice shiny new suspension setup for my rally car. Where is one of us the loser in this hypothetical transaction?

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It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

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NoCoast

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aj_johnson
On the governement debt issue. Yes debt is good! However a broken dam will eventually hold no water. This is the basis of my problem with the government, too many instances of mishandled projects/money and no plans, or measures taken to correct such. It's like a garage with too many projects, eventually one must get rid of some or fail at all of them. Until the government can correct flaws in existing programs I see no reason to spend willy nilly, on new issues. (ie healthcare) I don't trust em, and trust is earned. They have little track history in social project success.

Healthcare is not a new issue. Medicare and Medicaid have been around for plenty of time and there is plenty of track history in most other developed countries of the success of social projects.

Please cite some examples, otherwise I call shennanigans.

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It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

Canada, England, Sweden, Finland.

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Grant Hughes

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Vorpal_Rally

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aj_johnson
Started reading... already have questions so just for fun lets get those answered before I continue.

one of the fundamentals here: One’s financial asset is another’s financial liability

This makes sense in theory, however in practice there is very rarely a fair trade. one of two persons entering a transaction will always be the winner in a transaction (perhaps my understanding of capitalism is twisted but is this not a very dumbed down part of capitalism?). Therefore must wealth or acquistion of assets net something other than 0 regardless of the medium used to transact?

On the governement debt issue. Yes debt is good! However a broken dam will eventually hold no water. This is the basis of my problem with the government, too many instances of mishandled projects/money and no plans, or measures taken to correct such. It's like a garage with too many projects, eventually one must get rid of some or fail at all of them. Until the government can correct flaws in existing programs I see no reason to spend willy nilly, on new issues. (ie healthcare) I don't trust em, and trust is earned. They have little track history in social project success, and I take huge offense to someone telling me I'm not the appropriate party to be taking the lead in my families well being.

Theory is great until practice fails.

Am I missing the point?

Well, let's say I buy a suspension from JVAB. I pay him his going rate. He receives what he determines is adequate compensation for his time, effort and material cost(I am assuming he's turning some kind of profit.) In return, I've received a nice shiny new suspension setup for my rally car. Where is one of us the loser in this hypothetical transaction?

I never defined a participant as a loser However in that case, you purchased a depreciating asset to fill a need. From a purely financial point of view once those struts leave the manufacturers hands they begin to depreciate in financial value. (unless of course they bring more monentary value through your mythical rally driving business which turns a profit) John, financially comes out the winner, you fulfilled a self imposed need. Your liability on the product increases over time at a greater rate than john's did.

Grant-
The social medicine practiced in other countries limits progress. Of the 4 countries you have listed canada's name shows the most on the list of medical advancements in the last 30 years. Canada shows up infrequently at that. Also every one of those advancements required collaboration with another country who did not participate in social medicine.

In practice, leveling the playing field financially does not promote the future of said country but locks them in to playing follow the leader. When people are given a choice in professon based on skill level and financial compensation it promotes competition and advancement.

Perhaps all rally shock manufacturers should be price limited at an MSRP of $2500? What does that do for the sport.

Also, What is a gimble mount?

By no means am I saying that we shouldn't find a way to support those who cant afford healthcare, or find a way to prevent rising costs created by a litigious society.

This brings me to another pet peeve that pervades our society to the level of a plague. It is assumed that change comes from the top down, This throughout history has never been the case. Change is created from the bottom up, for instance a motivated individual comes up with a radical new idea and makes the effort to produce the product him/herself. If a person wants affordable insurance create a self insurance plan that covers you and several like minded individuals. It's done infrequently but of the 2 groups I know, all have been a success. (also in those groups are some of the most driven, self-made-rich individuals I know)

If you wait for someone else to take care of you, you will never be taken care of.

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NoCoast
Canada, England, Sweden, Finland.

France, best health care I ever received up to the upper spine operation a couple of years ago.

Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, New Zealand, Australia, Holland, Belgium, Austria, Cuba, Yugoslavia--and decendants, Norway, Iceland, Isreal,

Sweden's health care was pretty poor in my own personal experience and i read of terrible horror stories such as wrong person getting leg amputated when they came in for a flu, or wrong leg amputated when it was the right that was necrotic and patient asking why they were shaving the left and marking dotted lines---and told to "Not to worry, we're the professionals"

Well at least once they discovered they'd chopped off the wrong leg, they sawed off the other one for just $3.50 (at the then exchange rate).

We used to say about the amazingly modern--brand new back in 1974--Huddinge Sjukhus--"Ah Huddinge Sjukhus: where they make old ulcers like new."

How about missing a fetus when doing an abortion? Then telling the poor woman who was still puking in the morning and who still had swollen boobies, "Don't worry, everything's fine, you can trust us, we're the professionals" for a month----then finding she was still pregnant and going thru the turmoil a second time....Imagine her feelings...Imagine me the father of twin 38 year olds...

The point is other places have their problems too and it is the attitude of the staff at all levels that makes the difference. In sweden Lutheran obedience and trust of authority is the rule--in everything.
In France it is the will of the people that healthcare is a right for all---even dumbshit foreigners who get run over in the first turn cause Serge Bacou was so wound up he couldn't initiate the turn...
A right is what men decide a right is, and generations of French since 1945 decided it is a right.
From Wiki:

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The entire population must pay compulsory health insurance. The insurers are non-profit agencies that annually participate in negotiations with the state regarding the overall funding of health care in France. There are three main funds, the largest of which covers 84% of the population and the other two a further 12%. A premium is deducted from all employees' pay automatically. The 2001 Social Security Funding Act, set the rates for health insurance covering the statutory health care plan at 5.25% on earned income, capital and winnings from gambling and at 3.95% on benefits (pensions and allowances).[6]

After paying the doctor's or dentist's fee, a proportion is reimbursed. This is around 75 to 80%, but can be as much as 85%.[citation needed] The balance is effectively a co-payment paid by the patient but it can also be recovered if the patient pays a regular premium to a voluntary health insurance scheme. Nationally, about half of such copayments are paid from VHI insurance and half out of pocket.

Fees and reimbursements
Act .........................Fe........% reimbursed ........Patient charge
Generalist consultation 23 € 70% ..........................6,60 €
Specialist consultation 25 € 70% ...................... 7,50 €
Psychiatrist consultation 37 € 70% ..........................11,10 €
Cardiologist consultation 49 € 70% ...........................14,17 €
Filling a cavity 19,28 € – 48,20 € 70% .............5,78 € – 14,46 €
Root canal 93,99 € 70% ..............................28,20 €
Teeth cleaning 28,92 € 70% ................................8,68 €
Prescription Medicine variable 35 – 100% .....variable
30 Advil 200 mg 2,51 € 60% .........................1,00 €

let's see 5.25% for me is...hmmmm not much
5.25% of Willard Robme's 20.5 million all from "unearned income" $1,076,250..
Wonder what the max a family has to pay?

Oh they're covered by the primary policy holder.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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aj_johnson





Grant-
The social medicine practiced in other countries limits progress. Of the 4 countries you have listed canada's name shows the most on the list of medical advancements in the last 30 years. Canada shows up infrequently at that. Also every one of those advancements required collaboration with another country who did not participate in social medicine.

In practice, leveling the playing field financially does not promote the future of said country but locks them in to playing follow the leader. When people are given a choice in professon based on skill level and financial compensation it promotes competition and advancement.

False. That is the 'conventional wisdom" And like most of 'what everybody says", it is wrong.
There is a wonderful "Ted Talk" about the falsehood of performance being linked to compensation.
It is linked, but in an inverse realtionship; Pay people more and they---after a very low threshold, do less..

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

Your 30 year span is also too short, and that presumption, again a popular one to assert, is also false. Plenty of medical advancements by people all over the world..
Plenty of MEDICINE type research in USA, and genetics--usually funded by the big bad Gubbymint in various ways, performed by low-rent lab rat students, profits privatised---the typical socialise the risks, privatise the profit model that the US pioneered and the greedy people decided was a bright idea---that we see all over.

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Perhaps all rally shock manufacturers should be price limited at an MSRP of $2500? What does that do for the sport.

Great. I'll set that as my new MSRP

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By no means am I saying that we shouldn't find a way to support those who cant afford healthcare, or find a way to prevent rising costs created by a litigious society.

fawk that's easy.


Line up a few dozen CEOs , CFOs, Attorneys, Lobbyists, Insurance "Administrators" in front of a herded gang of Legislators and mow the parasites down...and then ask the legislators if they understand what they must do.

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This brings me to another pet peeve that pervades our society to the level of a plague. It is assumed that change comes from the top down, This throughout history has never been the case. Change is created from the bottom up, for instance a motivated individual comes up with a radical new idea and makes the effort to produce the product him/herself. If a person wants affordable insurance create a self insurance plan that covers you and several like minded individuals. It's done infrequently but of the 2 groups I know, all have been a success. (also in those groups are some of the most driven, self-made-rich individuals I know)

If you wait for someone else to take care of you, you will never be taken care of.

Sometimes by hook or by crook, one part in a Zero sum game has glommed all the cards and controls the game..
You're suggestion is still dancing to the profiteer's tune..
Time for new music.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.