Let's get political. Gun Debate!

so let's get political! Discussion on the US, guns, gun owners, the 2nd amendement, and the rest, go!

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Of the 142 guns used in mass murders in the US since 1982, more than 3/4 have been legally obtained.
Suicide success with handguns is over 90%. Jumping from high places has a success rate around 40%. Slitting wrists or similar is around 6%. Intentional drug overdose is only around 2%.
Suicides account for ~1/2 of all firearm deaths each year.

Firearms are an easy thing to limit and legislate against and being politically charged allows people the comfort of avoiding the real issues at hand which are much much more difficult to comprehend, define, and solve because they are societal. Things like the percentage of single parent families, uninvolvement of fathers and unconnected-ness of parents in general, treatment, diagnosis and lack of either for mental illnesses, etc.

There are two sides:
Gun control would lead to a lack of ability to obtain the firearm and thus would lead to the inability of the crazies to be able to effectively launch an attack of this magnitude. They may be able to go in and still kill a few people, but the death tolls would be lessened.
Gun control would reduce the likilihood of an armed civilian capable of shooting and stopping the attacker and thus increase the number of these types of killings. There are plenty of cases of an armed civilian stopping a shooter. There was one in an Aurora church just weeks before the movie theater shooting in fact.

But the real issue is mental illness and how do we treat such things and people. The best solution available to legislation is to attemp to minimize the effect when they snap by limiting their ability to obtain firearms ans weapons with higher effective killing rates.

---

Grant Hughes

the Second Amendment is sacred text. The Founders said we need people to be armed so they can be part of a militia, and so be it. When they said armed they were of course referring to what they knew and so obviously that is what should be allowed in a strict reading.
Therefore this is what should be allowed:


black powder made and mixed as per 1791, smooth bore, flint fire.

Ther rest, well times have changed, they had no intention to allow uncontrolled unlimited mass weaponry..

Holy Text must be upheald as written and as intended.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

#1. Guns don't kill people, but they sure make it easier to kill people.
#2. AR's are scary looking, but they aren't any more dangerous than hunting rifles or, at close range, shotguns.
#3. Most of the guys doing the shooting are literally crazy. Schitzophrenic. There is no institution to take those people.. until it's too late.
#4. I don't choose to live in fear. I do own several guns. Shotguns for Trap shooting, a 22 for target. These serve the dual purpose of 'home defense' although that's just not something I really ever think about.

Google 'I am adam lanza's mother'. You'll find a very good article written by someone who is struggling with a child (13) who has serious mental problems, and seems to have violent, possibly homocidal tendancies. It's chilling. What would you do? Besides make damn sure you didn't have guns he could access?

We could make it harder to get guns, but can we outlaw hunting? Until we do that, there will be weapons on the street. And the bad guys will be getting them.

Teachers shouldn't be armed. Schools shouldn't be turned into fortresses. But what if the principle was armed? Then the shooting would just take place in a movie theatre. These guys are seeking out places where people are known to be unarmed and there for the slaughter.

Bottom line: Gun control won't do a damn thing. We need to take a hard look at our mental health system that has completely failed. It's hard to understand what's going on in these peoples heads when you feel so 'sane'. But we all know that it takes more than violent video games to turn someone like that. The Portland Mall shooter a couple of weeks ago had tickets to HI in hand?! WTF? CRAZY.

Quote
NoCoast
t.

But the real issue is mental illness and how do we treat such things and people. The best solution available to legislation is to attemp to minimize the effect when they snap by limiting their ability to obtain firearms ans weapons with higher effective killing rates.

This.
But they don't snap. Mass murderers plan, the idiots in Colorado planned for over a year..
The real issue is what lead in this single country to the various anomalies and are those anomalies linked in some way.

90% of 'Merikuns claim to be Christian.
88% believe in "some" astrology
52 % believe the earth is 4,627 years old

And we're armed to the teeth with hundreds of millions of know firearms, and murder in any number of single US cities being more than all the countries from the Atlantic to the Urals.

Is there a linkage to those other bizarre beliefs and the bizarre belief that "I need self defense" and An armed society is a polite society
in the face of nationawide violence more intense than the various Arab armed rebellions?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Stop publicizing mass shootings and glorifying the criminals who commit the atrocities.


Why just shoot yourself when you could shoot up a school and become famous?


Stop glamorizing them.


As its been said, guns, whether flint lock or semi automatic (there is really no reason a civilian needs a fully automatic anything, lol. Hell, M-16's only have 3 round burst or semi. M-4's have automatic, from my understanding, but how fast do you empty a magazine with auto? A few seconds... ), are not the problem. It's taking care of the mentally unstable ones who commit these crimes that should be the priority. Not banning the tool used. They'll just find something else. Bombs are fairly easy to make.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Quote
Dazed_Driver
Stop publicizing mass shootings and glorifying the criminals who commit the atrocities.


Why just shoot yourself when you could shoot up a school and become famous?


Stop glamorizing them.


As its been said, guns, whether flint lock or semi automatic (there is really no reason a civilian needs a fully automatic anything, lol. Hell, M-16's only have 3 round burst or semi. M-4's have automatic, from my understanding, but how fast do you empty a magazine with auto? A few seconds... ), are not the problem. It's taking care of the mentally unstable ones who commit these crimes that should be the priority. Not banning the tool used. They'll just find something else. Bombs are fairly easy to make.

Miss the point Timmy.
Even mentally defective, skinny ass useless losers can still easily kill and wound a lot of people with no training and no effort at a good distance if they half awake..

A glib statement "other means" is just blather.
Knives, swords, bricks, fists they are less sure of a kill, risky for the attacker and all you need for escape is some little distance...

Smoothbore .60 cal ball, blackpowder like available in 1791, or nothing.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

How many kids have been kiiled by fires in schools in this country? I had to look it up. Zero. How do we protect kids from fires in schools? By making school buildings fire resistant, by installing sprinklers in every ceiling, by holding fire drills, etc etc etc.
Or, we could protect kids from fires in schools by banning matches. It's certainly a simpler solution.
But I'm real glad we don't do it that way because it is blindingly stupidly obvious that it wouldn't fucking work.
This county never ever used to have school shootings. We used to have school shooting teams, after school hunting where the rifle sits in the locker till bell ring, and never a problem, till very recently. There's no reason to debate guns. Guns are a straw man. The problem lies elsewhere and I think most people know it.

---

Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

Quote
Jay
How many kids have been kiiled by fires in schools in this country? I had to look it up. Zero. How do we protect kids from fires in schools? By making school buildings fire resistant, by installing sprinklers in every ceiling, by holding fire drills, etc etc etc.
Or, we could protect kids from fires in schools by banning matches. It's certainly a simpler solution.
But I'm real glad we don't do it that way because it is blindingly stupidly obvious that it wouldn't fucking work.
This county never ever used to have school shootings. We used to have school shooting teams, after school hunting where the rifle sits in the locker till bell ring, and never a problem, till very recently. There's no reason to debate guns. Guns are a straw man. The problem lies elsewhere and I think most people know it.

Well Jay, now that there's thousands of twisted fucked up psychotics running loose--who can easily get firearms and slaughter lots of people.....
what do you suggest we do?

When I was a kid, they didn't hand out matches willy nilly---but I could buy 3 boxes of .22LR every 3-4 days at 10 no questions asked.

But times are changed and people are changed and paranoia is rampant.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Jay, I agree. There is some information out there on how mental institutions kept the dangerously unstable people off the street. Those institutions are gone. Unless you commit serious felony there is no way to keep people in existing mental hospitals against their will. When the felony is committed they tend to go to jail (the worst environment for mental health).
We got problems. Are we producing more wackos? Does today's 'me first' entitlement society breed this? Or would they. E crazy anyway?

Quote
Jay
How many kids have been kiiled by fires in schools in this country? I had to look it up. Zero. How do we protect kids from fires in schools? By making school buildings fire resistant, by installing sprinklers in every ceiling, by holding fire drills, etc etc etc.
Or, we could protect kids from fires in schools by banning matches. It's certainly a simpler solution.
But I'm real glad we don't do it that way because it is blindingly stupidly obvious that it wouldn't fucking work.
This county never ever used to have school shootings. We used to have school shooting teams, after school hunting where the rifle sits in the locker till bell ring, and never a problem, till very recently. There's no reason to debate guns. Guns are a straw man. The problem lies elsewhere and I think most people know it.

This.


On the topic of muskets being what's available back then... well, I want to own a nuclear warhead for home defense. Seeing as I dont live in Russia, I dont see myself getting one easily any time soon...

Of the weapons available now, guns are hardly the worst.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

...A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.
• A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.
• A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.
• A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.
• A 2007 mall shooting in Ogden, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.

• A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.
• A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.
• At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon.

Quote
frumby
We got problems. Are we producing more wackos? Does today's 'me first' entitlement society breed this? Or would they. E crazy anyway?

I am a firm believer in the saying, "happy parents have happy children."

Oddly, I think much of it goes back to women's rights and the right to work. This led to an increase in household income and spending capacity. Almost all the added income went into consumption instead of savings. Markets reacted and suddenly household incomes were dual incomes instead of single.
Now it is nearly impossible to be a middle class family without both parents working and children are raised by increasingly incompetent nannies, day cares, and schools, none of which will ever able to truly replace a parent.

Side note: I am absolutely for equal rights and do not have solutions other than being a good parent.

---

Grant Hughes

Good point Grant. I'm for equal rights, but I'm also for 'good ole family values'. I think that *often* means one parent stays home. It's also why we're going to homeschool commencing in the spring.

Parents are a team, and team mates often play different positions on the field. I'm all for making less money and having less materiel items in favor of actual quality free time.

When I was 11 my 'big' christmas present was a cheapo pocket knife. I COULDN'T HAVE BEEN HAPPIER! This year we participated in a local charity for needy kids. Those kids submit present requests that are vetted and signed by the parents. The request we got was for an iPad. Unbelievable. Doesn't sound like a needy family to me, more like just a family that feels left out because they can't afford all the latest modern stuff. Their values are out of balance if the parents allow their kids to make that request. Turns out that of the 13 gift requests in our group 11 of them were for laptops, ipads, cell phones, or mall gift cards. IT'S A SYMPTOM!! My parents would have NEVER let that fly. They were too proud, and a valuable gift would upstage anything they could afford for us, and diminish the meaning of the holiday, which for us was entirely a family values thing.

Yes, thread drift, but I think it does relate somehow.

Quote
john vanlandingham
the Second Amendment is sacred text. The Founders said we need people to be armed so they can be part of a militia, and so be it. When they said armed they were of course referring to what they knew and so obviously that is what should be allowed in a strict reading.
Therefore this is what should be allowed:


black powder made and mixed as per 1791, smooth bore, flint fire.

Ther rest, well times have changed, they had no intention to allow uncontrolled unlimited mass weaponry..

Holy Text must be upheald as written and as intended.

The problem with your argument is the fact that technology has moved the arms race
towards weapons that have better range, and precision. Considering that the weapon
you've chosen to display, when the second amendment was writen, the general public
could own the exact same weapons. Are you suggesting that is what the GP should
only be allowed to own now?? Oh I know you're going to throw in the "Organised
Militia" card, but there in lies the rub, the second amendment is about protecting
ourselves against the government. Said "Organised Militia" can be a force that is
in disagreement with our present overlords...

---

SteveL
This is the point in the killing spree when you really should turn the gun on yourself