New Cars in NW for 2006

EH, sometimes it really does pay to just listen to someone who's been doin' it.

Standard Disclaimer: I have no aspirations for stage rally with the current organization climate. This doesn't mean I am not sympathetic to the cause.

I used to figure, why need shorter gears? Once past about halfway in the revband in 1st gear (not very fast) then it doesn't matter, since you have to shift eventually and then the advantage goes away until the shorter geared car has to shift and so it see-saws back and forth and you're not gonna have max acceleration at super low speed anyway so what's the point??

Then I came across a killer deal on some gears. Too good to pass up. I figured well, they might help out the drag racing, and maybe it'll change the shift points on yon dirt-cone course so I'm not between 1st and 2nd half the time. So I put 'em in.

Now, it's funny how you learn things. I learned that I had a bad driveline vibration above 5000 driveshaft RPM, which was about 60mph with the new gears. So, in true Polish fashion, I got around that by taking off the small by wee by 13" tires and putting some taller by 15" meats. Got that whole late 70's street machine vibe going on now, but it got the RPM's down. I *also* noticed that, despite being cheap and putting tires that are ancient and dried-out on there (just for experimentation purposes you see) the car has much more GRIP.

D'oh! Okay, it makes sense. You gotta have TIRE DIAMETER to get more bite, and not just with slicks on ye olde dragstrip. Bigger tires don't have to flex so much to make the contact patch, plus the *shape* of the patch changes, plus a buncha other things I'm overlooking. So you get those nice taller tires on the thing, okay now you need some shorter gearing, something in the high 4's-low 5's depending, and awaay we go.

Theory's all well and good, but been-there-done-that beats it any day of the week!

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

so you get more traction and have better tire selection
with 15's. and to use those tires i agree you do NEED
taller diff.

but right now i have 9 14' wheels and tires to go through.
some sharp and some testing wheels.

after those go away i get some 15's.

i'll be on the watch for a 4.55. came in some auto is bmw's.


i like all the info i get fom you guys and it does move the
curve up.

laters alex

---

__________________________

i'm in texas panahndle,
full of gas and oil wells
to slalom.

http://bcdracing.com//pics/rally/rally.html

rallysmurf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so you get more traction and have better tire
> selection
> with 15's. and to use those tires i agree you do
> NEED
> taller diff.
>
> but right now i have 9 14' wheels and tires to go
> through.
> some sharp and some testing wheels.
>
> after those go away i get some 15's.
>
> i'll be on the watch for a 4.55. came in some auto
> is bmw's.
>
>
> i like all the info i get fom you guys and it does
> move the
> curve up.
>
> laters alex
>
> i'm in texas panahndle,
> full of gas and oil wells
> to slalom.
>
> my car: GrF 1974 BMW 2325i


Hey I had my nose glued to the window last year when I flew to Pensacola and had a stop in DFW. Thought a boy could have some fun if you could get in on those roads.

A note.
English usage is changing and it is not always good, a ratio like what you need 4.55, or 4.75 is properly called "shorter" compared to a streety type thing with 3.7 which has tradionally called "taller", or "longer".

Think about the idea of "reverse engineering knowledge" and wonder if there EVER was a successful inline 6 rallycar.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Didn't Mike Hurst win Gp5 in a V8 or something?

---

www.rallyrace.net

Skye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't Mike Hurst win Gp5 in a V8 or something?
>
>
>
> ______
> Skye Poier, Puyallup WA
> Early 30s Undercover Canadian evildoer
> 1986 XR4Ti 'GpA replica' almost done...


I think he is refering to inline 6 motors having problems with their crankshafts at big rpm/power not to mention rally conditions. Breaking, flexing, bowing

V8s don't have that problem.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Good point.

---

www.rallyrace.net

the m20 bmw motor is used in a lot of race cars.
granted it doesn't have much history as a s14
m3 motor, but it still is a strong runner. i have
read a lot on the motor and THE only instance i
read of any crank troubles was in boosting to 15 lbs.
then that run the forged crank from the 524td.

my motor that i have will not see any boost
not anything over 6k. it is tuned for low end
torque and the power band will be from 3-5k.
128 hp @ 4800 RPM
170 lb-ft torque @ 3200 RPM
this will give my motor long life yet still be
very competitive in G2.

my hp numbers will comeup when i bore it to 2.9
with high compresstion.

bmw has a long history and a wide veriaty of
performance motors and that is one of the reasons
i am using this car.

---

__________________________

i'm in texas panahndle,
full of gas and oil wells
to slalom.

http://bcdracing.com//pics/rally/rally.html

I think we have all read about your thoughts by this point. I look forward to your car getting on the stages. Then we will all see how it worked out.

I have done the oppisit in many ways to you, I have given up low RPM tq for high RPM HP. I typically stay between 5500 and 8500 RPM on stage and have had no issues ever with the motor. That extra RPM lets me stay in shorter gears and that leverage makes my effective tq many times what the motor makes. Since I am willing to spin my motor 30% faster than you are I can get 30% more tq at the wheels.

There is no question my solution works, I am often beating the well driven Open Class cars on stage - there has not been another Gp2/F car that can really keep up around here this year unless I have a mecanical (non motor) problem. We could however all be wrong so I look forward to having you out there so we can see if we have been.

---

In the long run reality always wins.

hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Skye Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Didn't Mike Hurst win Gp5 in a V8 or
> something?
> >
> >
> >
> > ______
> > Skye Poier, Puyallup WA
> > Early 30s Undercover Canadian evildoer
> > 1986 XR4Ti 'GpA replica' almost done...
>
>
> I think he is refering to inline 6 motors having
> problems with their crankshafts at big rpm/power
> not to mention rally conditions. Breaking,
> flexing, bowing
>
> V8s don't have that problem.
>
> Andrew McNally
> Hamilton ON
> 26
What? V8's don't have that problem. Sorry but 5.0L Ford small blocks definately have problems with block flex/splitting and crank breakage. Not to mention only having 5 main bearings and 9mm rod bolts.

---

Scott Manley
Spokane, WA
86' XR4Ti
37

Scott Manley Wrote:

> What? V8's don't have that problem. Sorry but
> 5.0L Ford small blocks definately have problems
> with block flex/splitting and crank breakage. Not
> to mention only having 5 main bearings and 9mm rod
> bolts.

The *5.0* engines have problems because Ford tried to save a nickel's worth of iron per engine by reducing the counterweights in the crank and stuffing more balance externally. (50oz-in vs. 28oz-in) The pavement weenies break 5.0 cranks all the time, yes, but those are not to be confused with the pre-82 NON-5.0 cranks. it's not the number of main caps, it's not the rod bolts (who *cares* about stock rods anyway?), it's a crank issue, specifically an issue with trying to balance it by sticking a ton of weight several inches beyond the forwardmost bearing. It works fine for the street but keep the revs up there and sooner than later...

Meanwhile, straight sixes suffer all sorts of twisty torsional vibration issues and are limited because of it. The cranks are just too damn long, in simple terms. This isn't just one or two examples of boneheadedness, it's *all* of them. Also note that BMW is pretty much the last hold-out using inline sixes exclusively (similar to Porsche hanging on to air cooling for dear life decades after they realized it sucked) while everyone else has transitioned to V6's or is almost done with the process. (Not counting Diesel truck engines, unless Cummins has a way to make a Diesel run at 8000ish!)

Anyway...

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

5.0L blocks have a tendancy to split at around 500hp. Maybe it is only the newer ones? And consider it has the same number of main caps as a 4 cylinder. Theres a lot of block/crank flex going on. BTW Ford has a splendid turbocharged straight 6. Makes around 320hp in stock form. Only available in Australia though.

What gets me thinking is inline 6 in a 2002. Of course there are plenty of v8's in Sierras/XR4Ti's. They handle like ass too.

---

Scott Manley
Spokane, WA
86' XR4Ti
37

The V6 Sierra 4x4 had an undistinguished rally career, that's for sure.

---

www.rallyrace.net

I don't know why I'm catching on to this now.. but won't be putting a straight 6 in a 2002 be a SUPER tight fit? 2002s are but weee cars and if the straight 6 has ~3 litres of displacement it's going to take up every inch of depth in the engine bay and then some.

Besides straight 6s are dog performance motors. AND isn't horsepower fairly cheap in BMWS? I'm no BMW dude, but I'd imagine they have a well established aftermarket so performance goodies are off the shelf. Forced induction 4 banger should get the job done provided it fits all applicable rules. I know there were turbo'd 2002s..

I'm just rambling

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know why I'm catching on to this now.. but
> won't be putting a straight 6 in a 2002 be a SUPER
> tight fit? 2002s are but weee cars and if the
> straight 6 has ~3 litres of displacement it's
> going to take up every inch of depth in the engine
> bay and then some.

Yep, so tight there likely isn't enough room
But........
>
> Besides straight 6s are dog performance motors.

Yep, and any 6 costs more to make special-er since there are MORE cylinders.
All in all it is such a bad design choice only BMW persists in it (and Nissan and Toyota for their big piggy road cars)


> AND isn't horsepower fairly cheap in BMWS? I'm no
> BMW dude, but I'd imagine they have a well
> established aftermarket so performance goodies are
> off the shelf.
Not really, they don't call them Bring More Wampum for nothing.

And thing you didn't mention is the balance on the car which BMW claims isa so special in their cars, either car the 2002 or the actually probably MUCH smarter choice the 320 thing I thionk would have their biggest asset, decent handling, ruined by dropping in a big LONG heavt motor but now we're talking to each other since the guy is so dead set on doing it.

Reasoning and BMWs own rally efforts don't seem to have an effect on him so let her rip.



Forced induction 4 banger should
> get the job done provided it fits all applicable
> rules. I know there were turbo'd 2002s..

I believe he really wants to be in the GpF-ified Gp2.
>
> I'm just rambling

Yeah that's alright, so are all of us.
But don't YOU go thinking bizarre stuff on us!
>
> Andrew McNally
> Hamilton ON
> 26

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And thing you didn't mention is the balance on
> the car which BMW claims isa so special in their
> cars, either car the 2002 or the actually probably
> MUCH smarter choice the 320 thing I thionk would
> have their biggest asset, decent handling, ruined
> by dropping in a big LONG heavt motor but now
> we're talking to each other since the guy is so
> dead set on doing it.
>
> Reasoning and BMWs own rally efforts don't seem to
> have an effect on him so let her rip.
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


I'm no rallyist yet, but I would imaginge if I were competing I would want to compete in a car that has readily available CHEAP parts. Especially body and basic wearables. I don't want to know what a fender costs for a 2002.

Sure I'm building a 142 for the Targa Newfoundland, but I'm also fairly certain if I'm not reckless I can be competitive without doing major damage to my cars body, it is a tarmac event and one that encourages vintage cars.

As for balance... A straight six is never going to help you there, that anyone can see.

I'm a bit slower on the uptake, but I am now seeing why you guys were so deadset against his whole idea, the car, the engine and the rear end he wants to run are all unadvisable..

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish