Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!

I agree. How can any organization WITHOUT a spiral staircase be taken seriously?

Mega trailers will save rally!

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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Anders Green
4) Don't buy a 7.3 liter turbo diesel truck.

diesel vans! I've owned mine longer than any other vehicle I've had. Trailer even longer. no way DDing the van would ever be a good financial decision given the mpg and the maintenance intervals.[/quote]

ok so what is wrong with diesel vans?

i know the fuel is more money, and when they brake it cost more money, but short of that what is the issue?

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

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tdrrally

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Anders Green
4) Don't buy a 7.3 liter turbo diesel truck.

diesel vans! I've owned mine longer than any other vehicle I've had. Trailer even longer. no way DDing the van would ever be a good financial decision given the mpg and the maintenance intervals.

ok so what is wrong with diesel vans?

i know the fuel is more money, and when they brake it cost more money, but short of that what is the issue?[/quote]

That was just one item from a much longer list of things that some people entering into the sport or considering entering into the sport seem to thing they must have/own/use. The point of the list was to list off things that we see many new teams (that race 1-2 rallies and quit) or teams that say they can't afford to rally think are needed when they are expensive compared to alternatives and not needed to be competitive or have fun.

Here is the first part of the list. Go back a few pages for the rest of the non-essential items that people think they have to have.
1) Don't buy a toter home.
2) Don't buy a motor home.
3) Don't buy a box truck.
4) Don't buy a 7.3 liter turbo diesel truck.
5) Don't buy an enclosed trailer.


On trucks the big diesel is nice but pricey to purchase, maintain, store, and repair compared to other choices that are not as ideal but still work. I have towed the rally car with a ford ranger with no issues. the 1/2 ton ford I have now is much better and all the truck I am willing to own for now.

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Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

I never thought I'd get a gasser 3/4 ton, but I own one now and it is great. Maybe in prior years gasser's didn't make much sense, but the 350hp and 380tq and a 6 speed is more than enough for hauling 10k lbs through the mountains, it doesn't mind the cold, and the fuel is 30% cheaper (on top of everything else, its dead nuts reliable, just oil change and go).

At the end of the day, I don't think its unreasonable to own a vehicle to tow with and a trailer to tow your car on, it just makes good sense. I agree in the sense of "only used for 3 rallies and never again" it makes no sense, but in the sense of "wow, I need a truck, and an inexpensive flatdeck would save me tons of money over 2-3 years" its a worthwile expenditure. I've helped multiple friends move, rescued cars both rally and non-rally related, hauled fuel back from the states, (renting a trailer is $70/day after tax, typically you need the trailer for 3 days, $210/event quickly starts to add up).

My truck and trailer easily saved me more money than their purchase prices over the course of 3 years. And then I sold them for almost how much I had into them.

Nearly everyone has missed the point.

The point is that there are two VERY different discussions

1) What should a new guy do?
2) What are the good long term solutions to going rallying?

Almost all the the time the people giving out advice are people who have moved on to discussing #2 because they have done a lot of rallying. So the advice they give is correct FOR OTHER PEOPLE WHO ALSO DO A LOT OF RALLYING.

But with new guys, we KNOW that a very, very large portion of them will be gone in a short amount of time. So the advice we give them should be different. If we could change their behavior so that people did ONE more event before quitting the sport (from 1 to 2, from 2 to 3, from 3 to 4), that would be like every event getting 20% more entries.

So given that WE KNOW that 50% of all ralliests leave after 1-3 events, if you open your mouth to give advice to a new guy and you're giving long term advice... you're hurting the sport. When that guy shows up at their fourth event, walk over and THEN you can talk to them about long term stuff. The people that would have made it 9, 10, 11 events with the initial long term advice will make it there anyway after renting some trailers a few times.

New guys should get short term advice. Statistics say that's what will help them most. Believe math.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Another overlay-style, regional championship in the PNW will save rally!



Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2014 02:33PM by Anders Green.

I don't agree that all of the advice being given is long term advice. Some may be but if you can just get the newbie to think and study before reacting it will make a difference. Convince them to hang around events and web sites for just 6 months before making a move, and absorb as much as they can.

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Don Kennedy

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Anders Green
Nearly everyone has missed the point.

The point is that there are two VERY different discussions

1) What should a new guy do?
2) What are the good long term solutions to going rallying?

Almost all the the time the people giving out advice are people who have moved on to discussing #2 because they have done a lot of rallying. So the advice they give is correct FOR OTHER PEOPLE WHO ALSO DO A LOT OF RALLYING.

But with new guys, we KNOW that a very, very large portion of them will be gone in a short amount of time. So the advice we give them should be different. If we could change their behavior so that people did ONE more event before quitting the sport (from 1 to 2, from 2 to 3, from 3 to 4), that would be like every event getting 20% more entries.

So given that WE KNOW that 50% of all ralliests leave after 1-3 events, if you open your mouth to give advice to a new guy and you're giving long term advice... you're hurting the sport. When that guy shows up at their fourth event, walk over and THEN you can talk to them about long term stuff. The people that would have made it 9, 10, 11 events with the initial long term advice will make it there anyway after renting some trailers a few times.

New guys should get short term advice. Statistics say that's what will help them most. Believe math.

Anders

Why should we give short term advice? Why should I care about the guy who's going to do one rally then quit? He's going to quit whether he buys or rents a trailer....

I know there's two sides of the coin here, but if a guy buys a trailer and quits; who cares he wasnt sticking around anyways. If a guy rents 4 times before he chooses to buy a trailer then sticks around he wasted several hundred dollars. The guys who stick around are the ones we should care about.

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czwalga
Why should we give short term advice?

You should be giving people the advice that is useful to THEM, not the advice that is useful to YOU.

There is no question that approximately half of all drivers do three or fewer events ever. That's fact. So now that you know that, give them better advice. Don't advise them under the premise that they will save money on purchase X after 10 events. Because they won't. Advise them on the cheapest way to get to three, in the hopes that they make it to four, or five.

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czwalga
Why should I care about the guy who's going to do one rally then quit?

Take your argument to the logical conclusion: you should try to weed out everyone who's not going to rally for multiple decades from the very start.

Well, crap, now we have a rally with only six entries. Good bye rally.

You should care because without new people, your entry fee will double, then triple, then disappear.

You should care because it's the overall number of people that enter that keep events stable. Not the number of "old hands". Last year, five rallies were cancelled. The year before that, nine rallies cancelled. The year before THAT, nine rallies cancelled.

So if we can take these drivers, this half of all rally drivers, and get them to just a few more events, that means bigger fields for YOU to race against, more stable events for YOU, and better entry fees for YOU. That's why you should care, and that's why you should give short term advice.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

What's the correlation between people who are given sound advice and then do the complete opposite? Are those the people that quit after one or two events or the ones that stick around.

Dave

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Anders Green

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czwalga
Why should we give short term advice?

You should be giving people the advice that is useful to THEM, not the advice that is useful to YOU.

There is no question that approximately half of all drivers do three or fewer events ever. That's fact. So now that you know that, give them better advice. Don't advise them under the premise that they will save money on purchase X after 10 events. Because they won't. Advise them on the cheapest way to get to three, in the hopes that they make it to four, or five.

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czwalga
Why should I care about the guy who's going to do one rally then quit?

Take your argument to the logical conclusion: you should try to weed out everyone who's not going to rally for multiple decades from the very start.

Well, crap, now we have a rally with only six entries. Good bye rally.

You should care because without new people, your entry fee will double, then triple, then disappear.

You should care because it's the overall number of people that enter that keep events stable. Not the number of "old hands". Last year, five rallies were cancelled. The year before that, nine rallies cancelled. The year before THAT, nine rallies cancelled.

So if we can take these drivers, this half of all rally drivers, and get them to just a few more events, that means bigger fields for YOU to race against, more stable events for YOU, and better entry fees for YOU. That's why you should care, and that's why you should give short term advice.

Anders

The short term people are going to be there or they won't. Telling them to rent a trailer for a few events isn't going to make a difference.

Essentially you're trying to save people who already quit rally money. Why are we worried about people who already quit? On the other hand it's a poor decision for the other 50% who stick around more than a few rallys.

Most people don't intend to quit within 3 rallys of starting even though it happens; to those that actually plan on only doing 1 or 2 then quitting, sure go rent a trailer. If they can't afford a trailer and its the only way to the event, yeah do what you have to; but the majority of people starting renting in my opinion is a bad approach. Trailers hold their value so well, especially if you buy used.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2014 04:47PM by czwalga.

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czwalga


The short term people are going to be there or they won't. Telling them to rent a trailer for a few events isn't going to make a difference.

Essentially you're trying to save people who already quit rally money. Why are we worried about people who already quit? On the other hand it's a poor decision for the other 50% who stick around more than a few rallys.

Most people don't intend to quit within 3 rallys of starting even though it happens; to those that actually plan on only doing 1 or 2 then quitting, sure go rent a trailer.

What's a trailer rental cost? $200-$300?
Buying a trailer? $1000-$2000 for an open trailer, $3000-$4000 for closed?

Nearly everyone quits rally over money. I make the hypothesis that everyone has a fixed pot of money they spend before they quit. The starting size of that pot is dependent on your income. At some point you say eff it, the personal ROI isn't there anymore. For people with higher incomes, you're willing to drag it out longer than if you have a smaller salary.

If it gets people to one more event before they quit? a 20-30% increase in entries. I'll take that every single day.

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EricW

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czwalga


The short term people are going to be there or they won't. Telling them to rent a trailer for a few events isn't going to make a difference.

Essentially you're trying to save people who already quit rally money. Why are we worried about people who already quit? On the other hand it's a poor decision for the other 50% who stick around more than a few rallys.

Most people don't intend to quit within 3 rallys of starting even though it happens; to those that actually plan on only doing 1 or 2 then quitting, sure go rent a trailer.

What's a trailer rental cost? $200-$300?
Buying a trailer? $1000-$2000 for an open trailer, $3000-$4000 for closed?

Nearly everyone quits rally over money. I make the hypothesis that everyone has a fixed pot of money they spend before they quit. The starting size of that pot is dependent on your income. At some point you say eff it, the personal ROI isn't there anymore. For people with higher incomes, you're willing to drag it out longer than if you have a smaller salary.

If it gets people to one more event before they quit? a 20-30% increase in entries. I'll take that every single day.

I don't think it will help entry levels at all, you're just throwing a random number out there. A decent used car trailer is probably the only thing in rally related that actually holds its value.

It's really a stupid argument, either way.

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czwalga

I don't think it will help entry levels at all, you're just throwing a random number out there. A decent used car trailer is probably the only thing in rally related that actually holds its value.

It's really a stupid argument, either way.

We can agree to disagree.

But whatever "we" are doing with our advice as old timers isn't helping.

How can 'we' offer any advice to a stranger that is anything other than very generic? We all come from different back grounds, incomes and experiences...so do all the newcomers. Hard to walk in another guys shoes. People find a way to afford what they want. Alex admittedly over spent and is now paying the price. Others can afford more or less..who knows. I would guess a fair number drop out because of money but I'll bet some don't like the 'hassel' or find they either aren't comfortable going fast or even less comfortable going slow. We all know what things were like when we started , what worked for us, what we should have or could have done differently. Our advice cost us much more than it costs the person receiving it , I think the value is there.