Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!

a slidng scale of income to rally expenses will save rally!

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All bridges burnt, island life is beauty

Telling new competitors that they are doing it wrong in the most arrogant way possible will save rally.

But lets look on the bright side without arrogant advice there would be nothing to read on this forum :'(

I haven't studied Ders' data but I think it showed the occasional racer stays close to home. What neighbors should do is agree to consolidate and co-operate. If the rally is just an hour or two away, drive the thing there and wing it. Some times, the wreck won't even make it there on it's own and they can save an entry fee. (Jim P) A trailer can be borrowed or rented.

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Snidewhips
a slidng scale of income to rally expenses will save rally!

What do you think those national entry fees are?

Seriously:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination
"The term differential pricing is also used to describe the practice of charging different prices to different buyers for the same quality and quantity of a product".


Oblig: Economic theory will save rally.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

One friend is driving his Impreza to 100AW. 1700 miles round trip.

I think we have a problem with perception here. I've known people that towed with borrowed trailers and a little Tacoma, Duramax crew cabs and enclosed trailers, Escalades and aluminum trailers that cost more than the Cadillac. Tow vehicles tend to match a person's income and willingness to spend.
Trucks are annoying to me. I don't finance things so I tend to look at the lower end of the scale. I can get a proper Duramax crew cab from 04 for $11k with 220K miles on it. Then I start thinking of the 6k for injectors or similar for glow plugs or 11k for an engine or few k for brakes and on and on. I think the smart buy would be a F150 that they made seventeen million of. Sure won't tow a 48 foot enclosed or go 75 over passes but it will probably get you there and back okay. If Joe ever sells his 91 D250 Cummins I'm all over it. Single cab yet he's towed to two rallies with it this past year just fine.

I think what Anders is trying to get at is that whatever we are doing for new drivers isn't working. I don't think it's the cost of rallying that leads to most people quitting so early. I think that's what prevents builds from completion and competition. I honestly think the learning curve is what sends most people away. Most of my generation think they are bad ass from the start. I've seen people feeling angsty about not being able to beat _____ despite the fact that this is their first year and ______ has been rallying for a decade. I almost think we need to further split the field and have novice and expert classing. Or some kind of seeding system so that you are competing against more like experienced people.

What we need is to classify people:
Want to rally - Have rallied <= 3 - Have rallied > 3 - No longer rally/interested
Then look at what are barriers and what are the things that lead to transitions from one category to another.
The wife/kid probably influences the 0-3 event group the most but also can have an effect on the >3 group.
The >3 that transition to no longer rally individuals are probably the most likely to volunteer, still be involved in some aspect, and most likely to return in future. Sport really runs on these people generally so in theory, the more people we get into this group, the longer sustainability rally has provided we can develop a way to train and support them.

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Grant Hughes

Tow rigs doubling AS rally cars will save rally. (At least that seems to be the Estonian model...)

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-Brian

Most of this discussion is missing the point. Rally is having an issue with 2 big items. Attracting new competitors and keeping those new competitors in the sport. We all express the solution to this problem in variations of reducing the cost to competitors.

Over the last few years (maybe this started back in the Spitzer years) there has been an ever increasing perception in what is needed to be a rally team and show up at an event and be a rally competitor. The internet, "Pro" teams, and "personal wealth" funded pro looking teams is a big part of this perception problem simply because that is what most people are seeing when they see rally whether its the tow rig, rally car, crew, service gear, driving suites/helmets. Now none of the people in the three groups I identified are doing anything wrong they are doing what they want to do and what they can sustainably afford (in most cases). This discussion is targeting those that have the perception that all of that is needed and either don't try or get it all and burn out financially.

There are also plenty of examples of people coming into rally with a setup that mirrors the "Pro" teams running a few events for a season and leaving with a mountain or debt or burned out because the fun return on their investment in rally was lopsided. If we can advice the people in this group to slow down and build your "Pro" setup over time then maybe we can retain more competitors. Which would increase fields and help keep costs down.

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Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

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NoCoast
I honestly think the learning curve is what sends most people away. Most of my generation think they are bad ass from the start. I've seen people feeling angsty about not being able to beat _____ despite the fact that this is their first year and ______ has been rallying for a decade. I almost think we need to further split the field and have novice and expert classing. Or some kind of seeding system so that you are competing against more like experienced people.

Reading the last few posts I was already thinking about how to say exactly this. Seems a lot of people see the WRC stuff, play the video games, think they are the next badass. Go out and build a car, and find out it's a lot harder than it looks to be committed when you have real world consequences. It seems the people who do drop out (at least that I notice) are the ones who spent a bunch of money on getting a fast new car, race, get absolutely spanked by a guy in a 2WD golf or an Impreza making 145hp, and then determine it wasn't nearly as fun as they thought. Probably downright frustrating to be that slow.

That Honda Indy Car driver that drove the Honda Fit probably won't be back. Must be somewhat embarrassing to end up near dead last in a rally when you are a hotshot factory backed IndyCar driver.

Blame video games?

How do we (rally) fit within the context of the new generation of auto enthusiasts that grow up with 1000+ hp Time Attack cars, video games, and Gymkhana videos? How do we attract new competitors?

Why do our classes appeal to an aftermarket and manufacturer base that doesn't support the sport in any large meaningful way? Our classing should ONLY appeal to our competitors and in a way that maximizes participation.

National Championship - Two classes
Super Production
2WD Production

Regional Championship - Four classes
AWD Open - Expert
2WD Open - Expert
Open Light - Novice
2WD Open - Novice

Novice class to Expert similar to old seeding system.
Must complete at least X events in novice class.
Between X and Y events you will move to expert if you:
Win novice class and would have placed in top 1/3 of expert class provided there were at least Z entries in expert.
Complete Y events.

X and Y should be something like 5 and 10.

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Grant Hughes

I stopped my thought because I realized it wasn't worth the effort to brainstorm on it since it will never happen.

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Grant Hughes

You say that the sport shouldn't appeal to an aftermarket when there is no meaningful support, but I'd argue that other than some entry fee refunds, the aftermarket is actually where the "sponsorships" really are for most people. Now, whether or not its worth chasing down those sponsorships for all the effort expended for discounted or free parts is a whole other discussion.

I say share your experiences with the people interested in coming up, with emphasis on the mistakes you feel you've personally made, and if they take the advice...great. If they don't, it's not like you didn't try to warn them. Just save up pennies on the dollar and get ready to scoop up a deal on a used car.

Dave

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NoCoast
I stopped my thought because I realized it wasn't worth the effort to brainstorm on it since it will never happen.

I was going to try this as a "competitor-led" effort in the central region, by getting all the veterans to change their class to G5, so G2 could be a "newbie" class. But then I quit rallying...

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fliz
I was going to try this as a "competitor-led" effort in the central region, by getting all the veterans to change their class to G5, so G2 could be a "newbie" class. But then I quit rallying...

I'm not in the central region but would never have gone for that if I was. We've put a considerable amount of effort into doing sustainable rally just from car development and maintenance and what we spend at events. I guess entering G5 doesn't mean the car has to be g5. Yeah we have the sweet van and trailer and nice ez-up and jacks but that's been spread out over several years and even rallyx for a couple years before that. Which is exactly what I tell people when they ask; keep it simple, start small, work up to it and develop the car as you get faster as a driver/team.

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NoCoast
I stopped my thought because I realized it wasn't worth the effort to brainstorm on it since it will never happen.

best idea I've seen to save rally in the last couple pages, most other sports I've participated in or looked into have an experience/speed tier so it makes perfect sense to me. Could also weed out the slow teams that enter odd classes and then claim a national championship.

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.

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KTurner
Could also weed out the slow teams that enter odd classes and then claim a national championship.

I predict a 75% decrease in sighs and eye rolling when press releases are posted.

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Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

I thought rally all ready had teared classing? In rally they call it a speed factor.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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