Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!

Get's Popcorn . . . .

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HiTempguy
P.S Keith, maybe you can reply to my email about rally stuff eh?

Done.
And thanks for stepping up and doing yet another thing to help the rally community out.
BTW: If you can get there AT ALL for Saturday night... it would be a good thing.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Anders Green

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MConte05
It's great to get all the food and beer afterwards, but also would be nice to pick up the pace when it comes to giving out the trophies. But the whole provisional results thing makes it drag on forever.

You mean the 30 minutes?

I've never been involved in a rally that didn't pick up the microphone and start doing the awards the second they were ready.

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MConte05
Some of the races you really do just want to get some food, get the trophies and head out to either party or crash at the hotel since you've got a 15 hour tow the next morning. At STPR this year we didn't get back to our hotel till 12:30am ...

All of this makes me sound like a whiny bitch doesn't it?

Welll... the most delicate way to put it would be for me to request that you perform as homework an estimate of how long the day is for the volunteers who get up to get stages ready for you, then do all the scoring, then handle all the inquiries while you're eating, then clean up the awards hall while you're back at the hotel, then pack all the stage equipment while you're sleeping. I can only wonder if those guys "just want to get some food and crash at the hotel because THEY have a 14 hour drive the next day".

I can say this: Since I got started organizing rallies, I've purchased a lot of two thousand dollar meals that I've never eaten a bite of. :|

There are several things you can do to help:
1) Don't go ask scoring how much longer it will take. Every second they spend with you is two seconds longer it will be, as they have now lost their concentration.

2) Don't ask the organizer or officials how much longer it will take. They will then be tempted to go ask the scoring people, which, from above, already causes delays. Trust me, the scoring people ALREADY KNOW that everyone wants scores.

3) Volunteer to help organize incoming equipment. How does this help? It means the organizer/officials have more time to _proactively_ seek out and handle inquiries before the 30 minute window is completed. This includes setting up or taking down banners inside or outside.

4) Volunteer to organize the trophies. Often there's 50 trophies sitting in a box, and they need to be organized by class, rank, etcetera, and not having this done slows down the presentation.

5) Volunteer to MC some non-award related announcements. Like volunteer raffles or something. Often these COULD be done earlier, but they are not, since they are generally done by the same people who announce the trophies. However, this is BECAUSE those people are putting as a highest priority finishing the scores, not doing announcements.

So, that is how you, as a racer, can help speed up the scoring process at the end of the day.

Anders

At least at RA, the scores are assembled as the last of the time cards come in and then once the results are printed out teams are given 60 minutes (maybe 45?) to dispute the scores. Wouldn't have been so bad if the car wasn't stuck in Parc Ferme surrounded by 8 other cars so couldn't even go and load up the car while we waited.

But I do appreciate the workers. I am one of those rare (apparently?) competitors who did do a lot of volunteering before even starting to compete. Back then it was awesome just to be around Pastrana, Foust, Lestage, Block while in line to get beer, even just getting to get a few quick words in with them made the weekend worth it. I hate seeing that all the top "famous" guys (I know I know, we are jaded now, but to the average worker/fan, they are still famous awesome people) now don't show up at all to the awards since they get their trophies and then head back to their RV to party with their crew, or run off to some bar. That was always the big appeal to me working a rally, was the chance to party with the big guys afterwards.

However, I do like your suggestions, and will definitely keep that in mind for 100AW or LSPR.

RA gives 30 minutes after scores are posted unless protested.

The Provisional results become Official results after 30 min
utes
or after the resolution of all review requests plus 5 minutes additional
review
time (whichever occurs later).
If an intent to appeal has been filed
(refer to Article 8.4), the results will be decla
red “Official Pending
Appeal”.
Otherwise, the result
s
will be declared “Official”.
Once the
results have been declared Official they are not subject to any further
claim. The Event Steward may correct any obvious errors until the
results are declared “Official Fin
al” (refer to Article 7.15.C).
Differences
be
tween “Official Pending Appeal” results and “Official Final” results will
not affect trophies awarded at the event, but may change the awarding of
championship points and seeding.

Gene, Wild West 1984 was a Divisional...still have the flyer for that someplace...
I think despite everything that we can agree that EIGHTY-THREE is not "the Late" 80s...
Entry fee was $55....by "late" 80s for example "Michelin Pacific Forest 88" rally-- had skyrocketed to a whopping $85 or a 54% increase in 5 years.
(The "Party Line" was the "increasing road use fees" and "increasing insurance fees" --an increase covered for the entire event by one entry.)

By 1992 it had reached $100/day for PNW divisionals

So much for memory.


And moi? Toooo political?
Everything is political*....the guy who says the other is tooooo political means "not political in exactly the way I am political"


*Politics---policy--same shit.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Not arguing, just not remembering. Seems like we had Nationals only those early (for us ) years. The divisional stuff seemed to come on later like the DooWop stuff. I know I got regional awards from the SCCA back then. Maybe the stand alone divisionals came a bit later?? Gawd I hate not remembering some stuff. They (SCCA) didn't like daylight stages back then either. Long time ago and things have certainly changed.

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Morison
Yes, every Canadian Rally Championship event has a regional event that runs fewer stages....

- As an organiser who ran a regional event with 151km of stage, including two 34 km stages (turnaround) that were each run twice I can assure you there was a strong push from most of the competitors to REDUCE the stage mileage.

- That's not stopping me from planning ~136km of stage for Big White this year, with two passes of a 28km stage. Hopefully we'll get the roads we're looking at!

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find 151km (94 miles) that long. I think 2 years ago at Ojibwe I ran 98 (or 100?) miles in a day. Everyone I talked to thought it was awesome and nobody was complaining and asking to run less mileage. And I thought 3 years ago in MN we ran a 20 mile stage multiple times.

I just find it odd that there are competitors that say "lets run LESS miles". Since I've never been to a Canadian event, are the roads rough? (I'm just trying to understand)

Posting this thread on Anders's Facebook feed will save rally!!!!

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

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johnhuebbe
I just find it odd that there are competitors that say "lets run LESS miles". Since I've never been to a Canadian event, are the roads rough? (I'm just trying to understand)

By about 3-4 pm the Kokanee shakes are starting to get to them. Just don't ever say, "this beer sucks" if you are at a hockey game in Canada. Might start a riot.
http://cli.ps/XWAd

---

Grant Hughes

Canadian Bacon will save rally!

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Old guys memories (real or imagined) will save rally.

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johnhuebbe
Maybe it's just me, but I don't find 151km (94 miles) that long.

Neither do I... (and on reflection, I'll retract 'most' and substitute many.)
But... neither of us are in Anders' 44% that will do no more than 3 events in their lives. (A number that holds up when I looked at the Western Canadian entries since 2003.)

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johnhuebbe
I think 2 years ago at Ojibwe I ran 98 (or 100?) miles in a day. Everyone I talked to thought it was awesome and nobody was complaining and asking to run less mileage.

I know I've been in events that I wished had ended earlier. But that usually had nothing to do with the event itself.

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johnhuebbe
And I thought 3 years ago in MN we ran a 20 mile stage multiple times.

The discussion around 'long stages' was that any team that had a small problem on a stage was more adversely affected if the stage made up a larger portion of the event... One of the loudest complaints was from a team that flatted at 19km, and they called for a max stage length of 20km in regional events.
There is SOME validity to the idea that long stages demand more focus and stamina. I do know that the last stage I ran as a driver ended with the third pass of that 34km stage and my co-driver fell asleep during the transit to the finish.

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johnhuebbe
Since I've never been to a Canadian event, are the roads rough? (I'm just trying to understand)

I haven't run much in the states, and even less at a stand-alone regional event. (Only Idaho 2008, the rest were RA Nationals) but I'd say the Canadian events are more 'structured,' less relaxed. Also, I'd think the teams are generally pushing a bit harder on average. (not meant as a slam, but Canadians do tend to place well when running in the states.)

There are other factors at play including less daylight, particularly at winter events, which impacts service crews and volunteers more than drivers but is still a concern.

Then there is a question of cost. My rally car (2.5RS) cost me about $15/stage km to run in just operational costs. Add in event entry and logistics costs and it pushed $25/km, and it was essentially trouble free.

But... those are just some of the things I've heard... I don't really 'get it' myself.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Max 20 km? That's 12.4 miles...Some people look at that as some sort of "ideal" and at 8 miles as a bit short, 16 miles as fun,, 20 miles as a nice challenge...
They average shortness of many Canajian stages---only possible because of the relative surplus of workers---as perhaps the only "not super bithchin' " thing about events up there..
I recall at Rally Quebec the year I did that transiting 3 times about 50km for a 2.3km SS.
%0 km out, a short mainly dead straight pure ice stump, transit back 50km... Thats hundreds of km for nothing...


The thing that will save rally is more flexibility in EVERYTHING---just like rally always was before the 90s and the rise of the monomania about TV....Different formats, different flavors, the one thing in common was a car and a 2 man crew and real roads....
Some, short sprints and almost zero transits, some big giant country wide adventures--like Safari or Côte D'Ivoir, some like "Finnish Grad Prix" "short" (at maybe 220 SS miles) intense events, some like RAC done with Route Book only, others like San Remo both tarmac and gravel and 1 month open route so intense practice...

Different events, different regions, different flavors...as life is..
The push for exact same format "Mc Rallys" won't--and isn't--saving rally, just like McDonalnds isn't saving America but is instead breeding complacent, lazy whiny consumers.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Max 20 km? That's 12.4 miles...Some people look at that as some sort of "ideal" and at 8 miles as a bit short, 16 miles as fun,, 20 miles as a nice challenge...

Exactly.
I've always thought of 8k as being on the short side of the right length, but can think of a really nice 4km stage that one of the best drivers currently running in Canada called 'a beutiful stage.' There's more to a stage than just length, but we all know that.

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john vanlandingham
They average shortness of many Canajian stages---only possible because of the relative surplus of workers---as perhaps the only "not super bithchin' " thing about events up there.

PFR has had a couple of pairs of stages that are run as two, but have inconsequential transits between them. (~500m. for those that know them,,, Brooke/Thynne and now Dillard/Missizula.)
I've regularly asked why they haven't been run as a single stage and the toughest reason to 'combat' is that if something happens to throw the stage, you're better off loosing a shorter distance than you are the full loop. (Nobody wants to loose mileage because of a problem on stage)
But, and this is important, if you think, for a second, that any Canajian organiser isn't using just about every last foot of road they can get permission for on a given stage, then you should probably reconsider your position.

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john vanlandingham
I recall at Rally Quebec the year I did that transiting 3 times about 50km for a 2.3km SS.

Yup, same thing happened a few years ago. An organiser was told to add more stage distance to the event, so he added the only other roads he could get... which meant 100km of transit for the teams to run less than 5km. That didn't go over well, but it was the only way he could add mileage that year.

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john vanlandingham
The push for exact same format "Mc Rallys" won't--and isn't--saving rally, just like McDonalnds isn't saving America but is instead breeding complacent, lazy whiny consumers.

I don't know about that. (well, you're right about McDonalds)
At the end of the day it is really the competitors who will decide if any one event will survive or not. One of the things that is nice in Canada is that we solicit compeitor feedback at the end of every event. (You can't get your car logbook back without filling in a feedback form.) In reality, that means we get about 60% of the forms back with the dead basic 'great event, volunteers rock' comments, 10% 'I had a shitty weekend so I hate everything about this event,' 20% with well thought out and constructive feedback and 5% being micro-essays on what worked, what didn't and what could be done to make things better. (I'd love it if more competitors would put some time into these forms)
But, we do get a good sense for what competitors do and don't want. I think the entry levels in western Canada suggest we're doing something right.
My tendency when organizing an event is to give as much stage distance with as little distraction as possible. Sometimes that can mean sitting at a turnaround for an hour instead of having an hour long transit. (there is an almost dead even split when we asked specifically about which is preferred)

At the end of the day...
Finding, and retaining, volunteers at all levels of the organizing food chain (up to and including the 'federation.') is what will save rally...

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
johnhuebbe

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find 151km (94 miles) that long.

I can see why people would have an issue. Getting 150kms into a single day event is tough. Especially if you plan on having driver's meeting in the morning, results/end party at night. Doubly so racing in a small-ish middle of nowhere town that closes everything down at 9pm or 10pm.

Point is, I personally would rather do 125km of stage in a day, not wake up at 5am, and be able to relax with my rally buddies and shoot the shit about how badass I was throughout the day ( ) having beers at 10 or 11pm. Not 2 in the morning.

Of course, don't get me wrong. I love long, difficult rallies. But as the guy paying for everything now as a driver without any service crew, 120 stage kms is plenty of time for me to battle it out with my competitors to get to a point where the gaps just become bigger.

BigWhite is a bit of an exception, with everything being so centrally located, it seems easier (to me) to make the event longer without detriment. Of course, then volunteers become an issue... which they already are... but that's another issue with rallying currently.