Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!

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Morison
I wish I could get a handle on why certain events decide to go 'independent.'

Personalities and money.
Personalities - Can't get along with someone. Wasn't an organizer or sanctioning body that was willing to work with Ivan within a year or two of dealing with him. Denise/SWRC pissed off and alienated nearly the entire CRS community. I'm guessing the west coast NASA officials are included in that group. They went to Rally America for a few years and now it's down to money from the sound of it. They don't want to pay what Rally America is asking and there isn't anywhere else for them to go. Not sure why Jim and Mendocino is so tied up with them instead of standing alone or allying with a series that has good competitor support and respect.

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Grant Hughes

Pretty close there Grant. No one demanded more from RA and wanted to pay less . Beyond unappreciative and did a fair amount of unfair and undeserved bashing of RA and employees. "Stand alone regional" meaning not associated with a National. I've seen that term used so much with the "this is the feeder system for the sport" it is unbelievable.

Independent is one thing (a very sketchy thing) but Mendicino isn't independent as such. It is now being sanctioned and insured by Denise. I personally would not race or work an "independent" event in this day and time. We've had four fatalities in the PNW and several serious injuries. SCCA and RA were there for us when needed. NRS has been luckier with the fatality thing but have had some serious injuries (Brian Gottlieb and co recently in Idaho), one in the works lawsuit currently several years old. They have always been there also, standing right beside their organizers.

The price of insurance is pretty much the same everywhere for similar coverage. No real savings there. For an insurance company to take the risk insuring one or two events for cheap is pretty stupid and very poor business sense. One trip to the ER for a sprained ankle can cost the price of a policy from RA or NRS. Figure the cost of a helicopter, ambulance, hours in an ER, days in intensive care...do the math. It makes no sense. Maybe Obama is offering rally coverage? No wait that would cost even more and cover less. Silly me.

Anyhow, there is always stuff left unsaid...BUT there is that old saw about 'buyer beware' and 'if it sounds too good to be true...' maybe even the 'fool born every minute' saying might apply.

We have two functioning, adequate, supportive, knowledgeable sanctioning bodies . Straying from that path will not save rally and at some point result in some dire consequences. The one thing we know about rally is we don't know what is waiting around the next corner for sure. If an event can't function under the systems in place currently then it needs to not happen...pretty frickin simple.

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heymagic
The price of insurance is pretty much the same everywhere for similar coverage. No real savings there. For an insurance company to take the risk insuring one or two events for cheap is pretty stupid and very poor business sense. One trip to the ER for a sprained ankle can cost the price of a policy from RA or NRS. Figure the cost of a helicopter, ambulance, hours in an ER, days in intensive care...do the math. It makes no sense. Maybe Obama is offering rally coverage? No wait that would cost even more and cover less. Silly me.

similar coverage? http://www.nasarallysport.com/main/insurance-comparison

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heymagic
The one thing we know about rally is we don't know what is waiting around the next corner for sure.

Maybe we can mandate a tracking system that will tell us!

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

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Aaron Luptak

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heymagic
The one thing we know about rally is we don't know what is waiting around the next corner for sure.

Maybe we can mandate a tracking system that will tell us!

Drone escorts beaming back video of the road ahead so we can drive like we are in a video game will save rally.

Nothing personal Eric but BS.. . For many years now we've all heard that both RA and NRS insurance is crap compared to each other. Your chart shows a test day compared to a rally and notes added for the NRS policy that isn't explained from looking. RA and NRS both have insurance, the event costs are about the same and any differences aren't really worth arguing over in anything but a fun manner.

More and more and more gofundme's will again save rally!

LMAO awesome pic there...

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MConte05
More and more and more gofundme's will again save rally!

Matthew for Prezident!!

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heymagic
Nothing personal Eric but BS.. . For many years now we've all heard that both RA and NRS insurance is crap compared to each other. Your chart shows a test day compared to a rally and notes added for the NRS policy that isn't explained from looking. RA and NRS both have insurance, the event costs are about the same and any differences aren't really worth arguing over in anything but a fun manner.

That page on NRS seems to be awfully combative for no particular reason or gain. What is the point? Especially as Gene pointed out, it isn't even a valid comparison.

Anders?

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HiTempguy

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heymagic
Nothing personal Eric but BS.. . For many years now we've all heard that both RA and NRS insurance is crap compared to each other. Your chart shows a test day compared to a rally and notes added for the NRS policy that isn't explained from looking. RA and NRS both have insurance, the event costs are about the same and any differences aren't really worth arguing over in anything but a fun manner.

That page on NRS seems to be awfully combative for no particular reason or gain. What is the point? Especially as Gene pointed out, it isn't even a valid comparison.

Anders?

Why isn't it a valid comparison? The coverage on NRS for a mere practice day - and it is the coverage for all NRS events - is significantly broader than RAs. The explanations are for folks that don't know how to read insurance dec pages.

This comes out of repeated bashing from SCCA/RA boosters who came out firing about NRS insurance from the get-go. So it is combative to combat disinformation regarding NRS's coverage.

Just an FYI.

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

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HiTempguy
That page on NRS seems to be awfully combative

If you say so. It just seems like pretty non-emotional mathematical comparisons to me. Show me how to present "Number A is X amount larger than Number B" in the non-combative way you are imagining, I'll update the page.

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HiTempguy
for no particular reason or gain. What is the point?

The point is the, literally, millions of dollars more coverage offered. Does anyone think that insurance coverage amounts should be secret or hidden? *I* think that's crazy, but I know not everyone else agrees. That's why we put the coverage amounts in the supp regs in their own major sections:
http://linaracing.com/site-sandblastrally/2014/forms/2014-SuppRegs.v4.pdf
http://esprally.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ESPRally-Supps-3-04-14.pdf
http://highdeserttrails.com/downloads/2014/HDT%20Supps%202014%20v2.pdf
and so on....

Not that I see coverage amounts listed here:
http://rally-america.com/VenueFiles/2014_Sno-Drift_Supp_Regs_11-8-13_Final.pdf
or here:
http://rally-america.com/VenueFiles/2014_100aw_supps.pdf
or here:
http://rally-america.com/VenueFiles/2014_Oregon_Trail_Rally_Supplementals_3-31-14.pdf
or here:
http://rally-america.com/VenueFiles/STPR_2014_Supplementals.pdf
or here:
http://rally-america.com/VenueFiles/2014-Ojibwe-Forests-Rally-Supplimental-Regulations.pdf
or here:
http://rally-america.com/VenueFiles/SupRegLSPR2013.pdf
or here:
http://rally-america.com/VenueFiles/2014_-_RA_MWHC_2014_Supps_Final.pdf
and it finally gets a sentence in the MFR supps this year.

Easiest to find "old" supp regs I could quickly link to:
http://linaracing.com/site-sandblastrally/2007/forms/Sandblast-2007-Supp-Regs-Final.pdf
Yup, going back in 2007 NRS still publishing insurance coverage amounts.

So maybe there are people who want to just not disclose what their coverage limits are and then say ours are crap. The links are there, you decide.

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heymagic
For many years now we've all heard that both RA and NRS insurance is crap compared to each other.

And yet, only NRS has been regularly publishing their insurance coverage amounts for years. If the limits are higher, and the source is the same, how can it be crap? I mean, geez, RA called NASA up a couple years ago wanting us to provide insurance to them. Like Wilson said, there are plenty of people talking out of their behind for unfriendly reasons. Show me some DATA. Show me any cert where RA has more than 5% of NRS's million dollar secondary medical coverage, or where the aggregate is unlimited like NRS. Show me. I'd love to be able to say that ALL rally events have awesome coverage. Until I can, it doesn't make to pretend that two different numbers are equal.

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HiTempguy
Especially as Gene pointed out, it isn't even a valid comparison.

Not valid? How? One is a test day? The idea that we would have LESS insurance for a test day would mean that we would have even MORE insurance for the rallies, which would make the comparison even further in NRS's favor blows my mind. So, I added the cert for this year's Sandblast Rally. The limits are the same.

http://www.nasarallysport.com/main/insurance-comparison

There, the comparison is now valid.

And the costs... well, if you took what the RA national events were paying RA for insurance/sanction, just the nationals, and gave that to NRS, we could provide this superior coverage to them and give the other twenty events in the country the same superior coverage for free.

Racers should be able to make an informed decision, with data, about what risk they are taking on. Who stands to gain by NOT publishing their insurance info? I guess just people that like to take pot shots at someone else.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Yup, we had an organizer out here that was always pointing out how bad NRS insurance was and we would all go to hell for sanctioning with NRS. In reality he felt he had some clout with SCCA/RA and didn't want to lose that authority when NRS was involved. Sad situation.

There is a lot more to the story than words to interpret on a piece of paper. Our insurance is all secondary to one's own personal insurance but both organizations have proven to have coverage and be there when the going gets tough. Any differences are really more of a concern to organizers than competitors as sanctioning bodies are really an organizer decision. New events may be interested in some real or imagined differences but everybody already in the saddle has their reasons and aren't likely to change anytime soon.

I've never seen RA spend any effort trying to discredit NRS. NRS on the other hand spends too much time trying to over shadow RA..at least it seems that way on the website. Just silliness really.

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heymagic
Yup, we had an organizer out here that was always pointing out how bad NRS insurance was and we would all go to hell for sanctioning with NRS. ...
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I've never seen RA spend any effort trying to discredit NRS. ...

So it wasn't RA trying discredit NRS, just some of the RA organizers actively doing so? Ok, true, that is a distinction.

Regardless of source, that is exactly the behavior that lead to the comparisons being posted.

I often tell people "Be proud of what you're doing". It's a great insurance policy and we're proud of it. Where NRS does well, we should let everyone know. RA can tout the things it's great at.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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Anders Green

There, the comparison is now valid.

Don't know what you are getting all up in arms about. None of us know any of the information you just said. The page showed a test day versus a stage event. Any of the other stuff you just posted is extraneous because it was NOT PRESENTED at the time of the question.

And yes, it is a valid comparison now. Thanks Anders! The more you know...