Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!

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NoCoast
Here's just one of many references.
http://blog.designsforhealth.com/blog/bid/196869/The-Failure-of-Fluoride

Fluoride, bromide, and chloride are ultimately all bad for you.
Though not sure if there is much in beer. Maybe I'll test that right now.

even O2 ends up killing us

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

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No offense to Chris, but "the" E85 guy is more appropriate. Which is fair, because he has built his rallycar around running E85. So I expect him to trumpet as loud as I do for his own cause (if he even did, I don't know). I mean, I don't have a list in front of me of who runs E85 in Canada, but it isn't extensive, and seeing of how you are holding the information so close to your chest...

Right now I am probably the only one, but at the time I wasn't.... There was one other Ontario based team (which moved to $$$ Elf fuel), and a few teams in Quebec who had played with it or were on the verge of using it (i think the spec fuel talk scared them off).

FWIW, I did trumpet my own cause...to a point. My job was to make it known that some competitors were using it or were thinking about it, and how they would be effected with a spec fuel program. Personally, I had 100% come to the conclusion that if the spec fuel deal did happen I would be biting the bullet and making the move to the spec race fuel.

Also as Keith mentioned, it was by and large the guys that already ran pump fuel which sealed the fate of the proposed program. The option for pump fuel was nominated local "rally town" stations. Competitors had well founded concern about the quality of the fuel available which would see them using the 50/50 mixed fuel option. This ofcourse came with a big cost per event increase.

In any event, I spent the better part of 15 years running Karts all with "spec fuels". It could be a big hastle, and policing becomes a BIG DEAL. Afterall if you are trying to reduce costs and you are going to mandate something, it MUST be checked to make sure it's whats in everyones tank.

Overall, spec fuel won't save rally....unless it's free! There has to be some serious incentive for competitors. If it's a total wash, what for? You'll never win the arguement that spec fuel will level the playing field or it will slow cars down, because it won't.

The big "performance" things that IMHO really discourage the "top 10" guys that we probably should have somehow put a stop on before too many people got them? Sequential Gearboxes, $20k+ EXE-TC Suspension, and Garrett TR30r (WRC) Turbos.

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Chris

Awesome! Free spec fuel will save rally!

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Free spec beer coolant will save rally!

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Do It Sidewayz
Right now I am probably the only one, but at the time I wasn't.... There was one other Ontario based team (which moved to $$$ Elf fuel), and a few teams in Quebec who had played with it or were on the verge of using it (i think the spec fuel talk scared them off).

Fair enough. My point was simply it has always been a very small minority.

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Do It Sidewayz
FWIW, I did trumpet my own cause...to a point. My job was to make it known that some competitors were using it or were thinking about it, and how they would be effected with a spec fuel program. Personally, I had 100% come to the conclusion that if the spec fuel deal did happen I would be biting the bullet and making the move to the spec race fuel.

Just so we're clear, I complete expect this. People need to look out for their own interests too

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Do It Sidewayz
Also as Keith mentioned, it was by and large the guys that already ran pump fuel which sealed the fate of the proposed program. The option for pump fuel was nominated local "rally town" stations. Competitors had well founded concern about the quality of the fuel available which would see them using the 50/50 mixed fuel option. This ofcourse came with a big cost per event increase.

Pump premium is well over $1.50/L in most of this country. Race fuel (or a spec "pump" type fuel) would be almost as cheap, readily available since it would be brought to the event (I recently had a complaint about storing fuel at my property), and if partially funded by a sponsor, could end up the same price (or cheaper) than pump premium. At the end of the day, NOT putting caps on fuel does not help the situation. As I said before, the top teams will always throw dolla dolla bills around, its how much of an edge that money makes. Which means closer racing, even if at the end of the day, they are still ahead.

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Do It Sidewayz
In any event, I spent the better part of 15 years running Karts all with "spec fuels". It could be a big hastle, and policing becomes a BIG DEAL. Afterall if you are trying to reduce costs and you are going to mandate something, it MUST be checked to make sure it's whats in everyones tank.

Technically, we should be policing our fuel as leaded fuels aren't allowed. Anyone COULD be running leaded fuel. I doubt they are, but they could. So this argument is a non-start IMO, its an issue of using fuel period. Doesn't matter what the rule is, if there are any rules about fuels, teams can cheat. Just because something is "hard" is not a very good reason to not do it... rally-america seems to be doing fine.

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Do It Sidewayz
There has to be some serious incentive for competitors. If it's a total wash, what for? You'll never win the arguement that spec fuel will level the playing field or it will slow cars down, because it won't.

Well it would actually. Oxygenated fuels (in this case, MS109 and the like) supply an additional 9-10% of oxygen. You would chop a significant amount of power out of the cars at the top of the field, but you know this. Most schmucks (myself included) wouldn't be affected that much (IN MY OPINION).

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Do It Sidewayz
The big "performance" things that IMHO really discourage the "top 10" guys that we probably should have somehow put a stop on before too many people got them? Sequential Gearboxes, $20k+ EXE-TC Suspension, and Garrett TR30r (WRC) Turbos.

I agree on all points, some more than others, but of course then we start to devolve into a spec class. At the end of the day, Production GT is now a viable, great class to run in. If I ever do sell the current car, if I didn't move into 2wd for a while, a PGT car is where I'd be.

I don't want to limit the ability of the cars at the front to be cool, modified machinery. We just currently give them to spend cubic dollars, and get a good ROI on the final product.

Lambos will save rally!

I'm actually kind of excited to see if Brandenburg goes through with it (you better!).

I read the rule as 33mm if your speed factor is 95 or more. So if a steward puts you in the seeded draw and your speed factor is less then 95 a 34mm would be legal.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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Spectators on Recce` will save rally!
https://www.facebook.com/TallPinesRally/posts/899057750122346

On face this is a CRAZY idea to me - but I seriously want to see if it works.
You get maybe $2,000 for the pain - I would HOPE they cap it to like 25 cars or so...
but excited fans on slippy rally roads may not end well.

The post says a limit of 10.

I've regularly offered 'recce only' for a price, but over several years its only been taken up once or twice. Hopefully none of these people end up blocking the route or pissing of locals.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
The post says a limit of 10.

Ahh yes - I skimmed it. So I'll tell you as an organizer I might PAY $750 to have NO DRAMA on recce` - Don't know if I'd risk this.
- Kris

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Morison
The post says a limit of 10.

I've regularly offered 'recce only' for a price, but over several years its only been taken up once or twice. Hopefully none of these people end up blocking the route or pissing of locals.

Or whipping a shitty when turning around for a second recce pass of powderface

Who would ever do that...?

I will say, even for the $100 (or was it $175?) the recce practice was invaluable. At the time, we were also allowed to recce in rallycars, and it was great to get a feel for the car even at only 60km/h on gravel. You can learn a lot from how the car is moving at that speed, especially over long distances.

I agree, it is a lot of liability to take on from random people who basically have no vetting.

I don't remember what we set the fee at for recce only, but it was designed to be high enough to discourage someone who wasn't at least somewhat serious about the task.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Reamer
I read the rule as 33mm if your speed factor is 95 or more. So if a steward puts you in the seeded draw and your speed factor is less then 95 a 34mm would be legal.

Jeff, there are two separate rules involved. The first covers who is in the seeded draw , SF 95 and above , FIA drivers and Stewards discretion. The second covers restrictors and declares that anyone in the seeded draw in Open will run a 33mm. No mention of speed factor here.

A driver put in the seeded draw with an SP car would run 34mm, even Higgins , as near as I can tell.

that does seem correct.

do all of the big /fast teams run oxygenated fuel? (subaru -TP / DH / ford -block // etc)

if so , would requiring them to run normal fuel would cut out 10% of their hp ?

Only for about as long as it takes to type this response. The top teams, both speed and money, can afford to do the additional tuning and purchase the bestest parts to circumvent pump gas requirements. The 2nd or 3rd tier cars will be harmed more as they really won't have a chance then.