Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!

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heymagic
The top teams, both speed and money, can afford to do the additional tuning and purchase the bestest parts to circumvent pump gas requirements.

Are the top teams not currently spending the time to do additional tuning after they've fit the bestest parts to work with the spec fuel? (<-- rhetorrical question because I think its a fair assumption that they are, and so the 2nd and 3rd tier cars are at the same disadvantage while currently paying, what is it, $9ish/gal for the spec fuel vs the $3.75/gal for pump gas.)

Meanwhile, me = having to decompression my honder from 13.something:1 and retune to something that can live on 93 because the only local station that sold E85 stopped.

$800 regional entry fees will save rally... Not.

I dont think I am going to compete at Rocky. I dont think I can justify that sort of expense. Less than a decade of racing and the price of a regional has rose almost 90%. How does that work?

Can Talent, Television & Twitter Save North American Stage Rallying?

A popular theme I guess.

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Enablers, All of you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2014 07:24AM by BobOfTheFuture.

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HiTempguy
Less than a decade of racing and the price of a regional has rose almost 90%. How does that work?

Racers keep saying they "need" things. They need recce, the need shakedown, they need stage notes. Then they want things. They want a superspecial, they want a champagne spray, they want media coverage, they want shiny trophies.

Yes yes yes I know there have been arguments about each one of those pieces and how they don't cost money or they even SAVE money. Sure sure.

But my point is that "regional" (and that word is nearly meaningless now in the US, although it was relevant a decade ago, and may still be useful in Canada) events ten years ago were WAY stripped down compared to now.

If I took Sandblast and got rid of the awards party, volunteer swag, shakedown, jemba stage notes, trophies, spectator guides, local promotion posters... yeah, probably could have an entry fee of $375 (the 2004 early price) instead of $490/$530 (2014 super early prices).

On the other hand, $375 in 2004 dollars equals $472 in 2014 dollars:
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=375&year1=2004&year2=2014
Looking at it THAT way prices have gone up, adjusted for inflation, but you're getting WAAAY more than you used to for those dollars spent.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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Bill Wood's article
Can Talent, Television & Twitter Save North American Stage Rallying?

There's only ONE place to discuss what will save rally.

Pat Richard has done six rallies in the US in the past eight years. I don't know his Canadian participation, but as far as chasing an US championships, he effectively retired eight years ago. Very sad news about his current situation, but I don't think that's a bellwether for the sport: that's a man's private battle.

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BillWood
It begs the question: is stage rally in North America to be taken seriously? As much as I love the sport it’s a question that must be answered if the sport is to survive as anything more than a collection of regional events, regional drivers and, often, less than regional cars.

He's stated before that TO HIM what's important about this sport is the fancy guys at the front with their $200k+ cars. He can lament that all he wants, he's been pushing that message for ten years and what has it gotten the sport? Well, the way he describes it, it hasn't gone anywhere for that group. The more "seriously" you take this sport (and by seriously he means worthy of hundreds of thousands of dollars) the harder is to really get anyone to swallow that. You're trying to take your own overpriced wet dream and tell someone else "it has value".

In other news, BRS car entries highest they've been in a decade. Lots of fun will be had, lots of cars will get sideways, and many jumps will be aired out. I don't expect that Bill Wood will be there to see it.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2014 10:19AM by Anders Green.

I'm not gonna tell you where the new, cheap NW rally sprint is until after my name is on Louie Louie rally's entry list.

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Anders Green
*snip*

Anders

Anders, there comes a point where no justifying matters. At the end of the day, something becomes prohibitively expensive. I have spent $xxx,xxx racing over the past decade. When just the entry fee alone starts to get close to $1k, you have to start reviewing your priorities.

The argument could be made that someone (like myself) can downsize cars, run a leaner budget, etc etc. Sure I could. But I want to go as fast as possible. Maybe I can do that in a 2wd car for a while, and then as the costs continue to escalate, bow out.

As I have pointed out time and again, I can do road racing for $300 a weekend, sleep in my own bed, have a 30 minute tow to the track (or 3 hour tow to the two new ones being built), and have preparation rules that are massively cheaper. Is it rallying? No, not even close. Is it fun? Hell yes, especially for half the cost of rallying.

The point is, these apparent "increases" in rallying have practically wiped out most of my "take home" portion of my raise this year (a not insignificant 6%) if I was to compete at all of the events. That is not something to be taken lightly, especially with ones finances.

I have had TWO competitors now ask me about Rocky regional pricing. In my whole time rallying, I have never had anyone go "holy crap, look at that price increase!" I am aware that there are reasons for it, but as I said, the buck stops at "I can't afford this". The only valid argument to be made for increased price is increased stage mileage. I can justify a $800 regional fee for 175km+ of stage.

Oh, and because this is the "this will save rally thread", we should make that regional fee $925 if Keith gets his way. I'd like to say I am joking, but its not really funny...

Edit-

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Anders Green

In other news, BRS car entries highest they've been in a decade. Lots of fun will be had, lots of cars will get sideways, and many jumps will be aired out. I don't expect that Bill Wood will be there to see it.

We are also having GREAT regional turnouts. At the end of the day, a sport/hobby can survive if there are enough "gentlemen" drivers, they will pay whatever is required to go racing. I'm waiting to see when we get to the point of needing to pay for volunteers, which I think is rapidly approaching.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2014 10:23AM by HiTempguy.

Pat Richard's problem was the he obviously wasn't paying to promote himself enough on facebook or twitter.

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Grant Hughes

That article sounds rather whiny to me ... also if the SCCA left in 04 , and we just now are on TV here in 2014 isn't that a decade of waiting ?

$800 for a regional is rather expensive. I remember Idaho rally the last year Jens ran it was right around there $850? and that was for 150 Miles of stage and a bunch of transit too. and a super special with cross over jump ..


that is a price that starts pushing people away though . but meh ..

In a lot of cases (but not all) I don't see why organizers can't do more of "write your own notes" style to push costs Down, and it basically lets the competitors sort it out. Really want notes? go early and do recce. Really can't do that, find a team that is and copy their notes ... ! :O

also .. So Anders

if "On the other hand, $375 in 2004 dollars equals $472 in 2014 dollars:"
and its 490 now with reccee and an award party + volunteer swag ... doesn't that mean adding all that only costs like $18 per competitor ? (i'm sure that Can't be the case but ) ...

You know, I had a long response to Adam's post but fuck it.
Adam, you are the President of the region for the host club for Rocky... you could start acting like it.
- Call a meeting for the RallyWest executive, you could probably ask CARS if you could use the conference calling system, and start a conversation about the rising costs and how they are being addressed.
- Come out of that meeting with a message to the event organizers that ever increasing entry fees are not acceptable and that expenses need to be reviewed and controlled.
- If an organizer tells you the cost is what it is, demand to see the budget as a condition of sanctioning the event. (IE: institute a policy that says 'if you can't run your regional event for under $x, show us why.)
- If you think there are problems within YOUR region, don't just bitch about it on Rally Anarchy, try and get something done about it.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
You know, I had a long response to Adam's post but fuck it.
Adam, you are the President of the region for the host club for Rocky... you could start acting like it.
- Call a meeting for the RallyWest executive, you could probably ask CARS if you could use the conference calling system, and start a conversation about the rising costs and how they are being addressed.
- Come out of that meeting with a message to the event organizers that ever increasing entry fees are not acceptable and that expenses need to be reviewed and controlled.
- If an organizer tells you the cost is what it is, demand to see the budget as a condition of sanctioning the event. (IE: institute a policy that says 'if you can't run your regional event for under $x, show us why.)
- If you think there are problems within YOUR region, don't just bitch about it on Rally Anarchy, try and get something done about it.

Which maybe I am doing. It didn't occur to me that this was a problem until I went and looked at RMR sups as I was planning on entering. I run on the information I find OR am provided with. Somebody provided me recently the information of "holy shit prices have gone up a ton!" And then I started looking at regional entry fees lately. And then I have you going on about RallySafe, which we talked about at the test day.

First step, awareness. Second step, game plan. Third step, roll it out. I didn't just sit on my ass when the issue of importing rallycars came to light, did I? I did what I could, for an issue which greatly threatens our sport. Wim's old Nissan Sentra is back in the USA. That is an affordable rallycar that will NEVER be owned in this province again. But I digress (and am going off topic)...

Unfortunately, I am just one person. As Bryan has so kindly pointed out, maybe I shouldn't be president. Its clearly not a roll I am suited for, but I'll keep doing it until someone else wants to try it out. I'm some guy who likes rallying, I'm no allstar rally organizer extraordinaire. That's for guys like you and Anders and (insert the hundreds of amazing volunteers out there).

But awareness is an important piece of the puzzle. You can bet your ass I am going to do SOMETHING about this Keith before throwing in the towel. I've been beating this drum for the past 8 years of rallying and seem to make little headway, but I'll keep doing it.

Isn't that the point of this thread? I can still smile about all of this because I will try and do something about it.

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A1337STI
That article sounds rather whiny to me ... also if the SCCA left in 04 , and we just now are on TV here in 2014 isn't that a decade of waiting ?

Yeah - I'm completely disappointed that this article turned into a rant about why US rallies are broken. Pat was an early role model of mine and I met him at MFPR in 00', and I'm bummed that he has to stop rallying (because I think it would absolutely suck if I had to). I think it's kinda BS to turn his "leaving rally" write-up into a sermon about how you think that rally has needed superstars to survive and how that unraveled in the US with Block and Pastrana.

How about we consider that Rally is here in the US and we're running local events with 50+ cars and you can worry about emerging superstars, or you can go out and cover US rally. - sigh...
- Kris

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A1337STI
$800 for a regional is rather expensive.

As I said above, in the US, the word "regional" is nearly meaningless. The ONLY mean it has is "non-Rally America National calendar". There is no other metric where you could measure events and perfectly identify.

So is $800 for a two day rally expensive? That means $400 for a one day rally is expensive? It's nice when they're cheaper, but that seems to be the market rate.

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A1337STI
that is a price that starts pushing people away though .

True.

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A1337STI
So Anders

if "On the other hand, $375 in 2004 dollars equals $472 in 2014 dollars:"
and its 490 now with reccee and an award party + volunteer swag ... doesn't that mean adding all that only costs like $18 per competitor ? (i'm sure that Can't be the case but ) ...

No, that's not the case. There's about half a dozen holes in that conclusion, more than I care to type today.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

I like Bill Wood and Bill Wood is a rally fan. But he got his way with road racing and now, you need a GT3 R8, Aston or Bentley to run against Kias. It is so fucked up now nobody with talent alone can even get on the grid.
Adam, go road racing, fine. I road raced 20 years before rally and good luck getting to race in the top class at the top series for $1000 entry fee and a home-built car. Yes you can enter some goof-ball Lemons or regional race but when you win, who did you beat? In rally you could enter an event and drive the same race on the same roads with Antoine and Pat and see the real results of your effort. And in rally, if you have a good reputation, you can get some schmuck from Red Dear to pay to sit in the other seat. That doesn't happen in road racing.

Starting a pissing match with Morrison will save rally?

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Anders Green

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A1337STI
$800 for a regional is rather expensive.

So is $800 for a two day rally expensive? That means $400 for a one day rally is expensive? It's nice when they're cheaper, but that seems to be the market rate.

Anders

Come on Anders. Number of days is meaningless. Number of competitive miles is what counts. Get rid of all multiple day rallies will save rallying.
In the good old days (and yes, in some aspects they were better) rallies were 1 day with more miles than most have today. Less expensive for food, hotel, vacation days, etc.
Oh, and I know you'll tell me about the problems with workers that is solved by 2 days. But many times at BRS, the worker pool is quite different on Sat than on Sun, different people.

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Don Kennedy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2014 12:57PM by imnotcrazy.