Quote
imnotcrazy
Come on Anders. Number of days is meaningless. Number of competitive miles is what counts.

My opinion is different.

Take a look at, say, 2014 HDT vs 2014 OT. 127 miles on one day vs 114 miles on two days. Lots of people choose fewer miles on two days. Same weekend, same side of the country.

All of us like to entertain the fictional notion that we are, in the economic sense, "rational actors". We're not though. Bright and shiny things grab our attention much more reliably than careful analysis.

Quote
acedemia
For hundreds of years, the study of economics has rested on the principle that human beings act rationally, all the time. More recently, academia has caught on to what many of us have known for years - that immediate gratification is a far greater motivator than rational thought or profit maximizing. From that seed grows the emerging field of Behavioral Economics, which combines psychology and economics to reveal why people so rarely act in their own best interest, particularly when it comes to money.

http://www.connectsavannah.com/savannah/were-not-rational-actors/Content?oid=2131666

Or here:

Quote
acedemia
the rational behavior of human agents is far from being invariably utility- and profit-optimizing, and thus cannot be automatically reduced to economic rationality.

http://www.sociology.org/content/vol7.2/02_zafirovski.html

If course length and cost REALLY influenced people, that would be great. But rally is not a commodity, it's not like gas or lumber. I've just seen over and over again that people with an option to choose a rally with a lower dollar per mile figure DON'T choose that rally.

So I don't think that's the driving factor. In my mind it's like thinking that someone would make a choice between a Lamborghini and a Ferrari based on their MPG rating.

Just because I _want_ racers to value dollars per mile doesn't mean that they do. Just my opinion, I know not all share it.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Quote
Anders Green

Quote
imnotcrazy
Come on Anders. Number of days is meaningless. Number of competitive miles is what counts.

My opinion is different.

Take a look at, say, 2014 HDT vs 2014 OT. 127 miles on one day vs 114 miles on two days. Lots of people choose fewer miles on two days. Same weekend, same side of the country.

All of us like to entertain the fictional notion that we are, in the economic sense, "rational actors". We're not though. Bright and shiny things grab our attention much more reliably than careful analysis.

Quote
acedemia
For hundreds of years, the study of economics has rested on the principle that human beings act rationally, all the time. More recently, academia has caught on to what many of us have known for years - that immediate gratification is a far greater motivator than rational thought or profit maximizing. From that seed grows the emerging field of Behavioral Economics, which combines psychology and economics to reveal why people so rarely act in their own best interest, particularly when it comes to money.

http://www.connectsavannah.com/savannah/were-not-rational-actors/Content?oid=2131666

Or here:

Quote
acedemia
the rational behavior of human agents is far from being invariably utility- and profit-optimizing, and thus cannot be automatically reduced to economic rationality.

http://www.sociology.org/content/vol7.2/02_zafirovski.html

If course length and cost REALLY influenced people, that would be great. But rally is not a commodity, it's not like gas or lumber. I've just seen over and over again that people with an option to choose a rally with a lower dollar per mile figure DON'T choose that rally.

So I don't think that's the driving factor. In my mind it's like thinking that someone would make a choice between a Lamborghini and a Ferrari based on their MPG rating.

Just because I _want_ racers to value dollars per mile doesn't mean that they do. Just my opinion, I know not all share it.

Anders

This is a GREAT video to watch, or anything else that Dan Ariely does. http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_of_our_own_decisions?language=en

His book Predicatively Irrational is a great read: http://www.amazon.com/Predictably-Irrational-Revised-Expanded-Edition/dp/0061353248

Quote
Anders Green

Quote
imnotcrazy
Come on Anders. Number of days is meaningless. Number of competitive miles is what counts.

My opinion is different.

Take a look at, say, 2014 HDT vs 2014 OT. 127 miles on one day vs 114 miles on two days. Lots of people choose fewer miles on two days. Same weekend, same side of the country.

All of us like to entertain the fictional notion that we are, in the economic sense, "rational actors". We're not though. Bright and shiny things grab our attention much more reliably than careful analysis.

If course length and cost REALLY influenced people, that would be great. But rally is not a commodity, it's not like gas or lumber. I've just seen over and over again that people with an option to choose a rally with a lower dollar per mile figure DON'T choose that rally.

Anders

comparing the HDT turn out verus OT is a very weak attempt at proving your theory.

competitors who were closer to HDT mostly choose HDT. Its part of the CRS and awards no RA points. so you may have gotten a few entries from people who are Avoiding RA this year and would make the extra milage.

OT is gonna attract people who want to compare times with Higgins and the folk. its gonna attract people who want "national flair" , TV exposure, etc. Its also going to get a lot of competitors where this is their "home town" event and they wouldn't skip it .

I totally agree and Get that people make irrational decisions .

That's kind of proving my point Alex. The reasons you listed for picking rally A vs rally B were not mileage.

Shiny factor, convenience, proximity, ego, vanity, you listed all those though. *grin*

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

No its not proving your point, nor is it Disproving it.

It just proves an Unrelated theory that competitors really decide which rallies to attend based upon a lot of factors.

that does not in any way dis-credit that event mileage is a factor when competitors choose which events they will race.

and its off track (hey that's what forums are for!) to the point that, more mileage can make a bigger entry fee more palatable.

IF Idaho rally 2010 was $850 for 80 miles, i would not have gone. period. the fact that it was 150 miles (the longest US rally that year.. and part of the USRC) was the tipping point i needed to pull the trigger and attend.


so perhaps if Rocky mountain rally added 65 more KM of stage, then Adam would also be like. well for that many miles okay i'm in.

And if Adam agrees more mileage would make it a GO for him, that's only 2 of ~~ 300 competitors agreeing that mileage does influence decisions. Again, not enough data sampling for a trend to be spotted ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2014 03:10PM by A1337STI.

I most certainly factor stage miles into my decisions. It's why ive yet to make it to sandblast. I'd make more of an effort to make it there if it was 130 stage miles. Now i'm in no means saying you need to change the event for me or for anyone, but it is a factor in peoples decision making.

For me the prices of all rallys, not including RA's crazy national prices, are for the most part within a single rally tire purchase away from each other. Some are on such a strict budget it matters, but if i'm prepping the car and I have a choice between 130 miles vs 80 miles, with the 130 mile event costing $150 more, well thats a drop in the bucket compared to the level of effort on car prep; towing, lodging etc. I'll pay the extra $150.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2014 02:59PM by czwalga.

Quote
Anders Green

Quote
imnotcrazy
Come on Anders. Number of days is meaningless. Number of competitive miles is what counts.

My opinion is different.

Take a look at, say, 2014 HDT vs 2014 OT. 127 miles on one day vs 114 miles on two days. Lots of people choose fewer miles on two days. Same weekend, same side of the country.
Anders

'


Wait my dear Andréz! HDT was one day one day. Oregon was what?
Reg and recce day
Squeal skeetie day around PIR for a 4-6 miles of jerkin the gherkin------and then a 70 mile transit to a Parque Fermé sans spectateurs day
Blaze out in the prairie 1200 R 6 --900 R5, 1000 R6, day
then finally
Around the base of Mt Hood on Sunday...

Wasnznit?

Add a day on ech end for Travel...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

1st world problems?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

It always strikes me as ironic that it tends to be the same people that say things like, "I'll only do a rally that has recce" tend to be the same ones that compain about the costs.
Bill Woods is a nice guy but I think he's fairly clueless as to what rally needs. What rally in the US needs is for us to stop embracing the "look what I can do, I'm totally awesome" crowd.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast
It always strikes me as ironic that it tends to be the same people that say things like, "I'll only do a rally that has recce" tend to be the same ones that compain about the costs.

Dunno if this is a plug at me or not, but I'll bite:

Rallying for me involves recce/pace notes. From the video games I played as a kid, to the events I volunteered at while not having any form of money, to my very first competitive event.

Recce is a part of rallying. Take it away, and its not rallying anymore to me. This issue especially resonates with me as a co-driver. I would not drive OR co-drive an event without recce. At the end of the day, as a driver alone it wouldn't make a difference to me since everyone would be on the same footing. Having been extensively on the "other" side, I wouldn't have it any other way.

So why would I pay for something I didn't want? Just because someone wants recce doesn't mean they want to spend $825 a barrel of race fuel. Or wants to pay $150/night for hotels vs $50/night for hotels. etc etc. That makes no sense.

And on top of all of that, recce isn't expensive for me (if it is a one day event). So why you make out recce to be a huge expense is beyond me.

Quote
HiTempguy

Quote
NoCoast
........So why you make out recce to be a huge expense is beyond me.

Because in almost every case recce adds a day to the rally. That means extra meals, extra hotel rooms, extra time of work, etc.

---

Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

Quote
mothra
Because in almost every case recce adds a day to the rally. That means extra meals, extra hotel rooms, extra time of work, etc.

If you've rallied without recce before, or that is your expected standard, then yes, I would agree.

I have not rallied without recce before. That "day" added is not added in my case. It has always BEEN an expected part of what "rallying" is.

Most people competing in Western Canada have a similiar experience, except for the really old farts.

Also, showing up to a rally at 6am in the morning sucks (btdt). I don't do it anymore. For the cost of a <$100 hotel room, you are much better off (both physically and mentally). Split that between two people (driver and co-driver) and its $50 each.

I don't count food. Eating is a requirement. Sure, it isn't at home where my meal cost is $6/each for dinner, but it still is something that I have to do no matter what I am doing. Its not hard to have a $15 meal on the road.

Extra time off work is definitely the biggie. I have no argument for that, as I made sure I had a job that supported my habits. Some may not have made that decision or gotten that lucky.

Quote
randyzimmer
And in rally, if you have a good reputation, you can get some schmuck from Red Dear to pay to sit in the other seat. That doesn't happen in road racing.

Bwhahahahaha!!!!

Gentleman Co-drivers with Halliburton cases full of cash will save rally!

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Wasn't aimed at you Adam. I've seen it a few times.
I value a day away at at least $300. Its worse now that I'm 100% self employed. If we're not working, we're not making money. I do try to take most Sundays off. We take Christmas and easter off but have worked every other holiday. I paid the entry for a 12 hour enduro in two weeks. May do 1st and last stints and come back to work in between. Shit, what's my point...

---

Grant Hughes

government subsidies will save rally!

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Fifty page, 1500 post long threads will save rally!

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.