I can't see any chance of an FIA event happening here, that's not a bad thing.

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imnotcrazy
Let's take a vote. Who thinks the USA needs an FIA style rally?
I'll start. I don't. I think we need just plain old affordable good rallies. Forget the FIA etc BS.

I don't get the difference.
Who says you can't have an FAI style rally that is also an affordable, good, rally.
Given that we will want to ignore the requirement for Homologated cars, what else comes with the FIA style that is 'BS.'
Ok, ATC to ATC timing gives a team the incentive to speed on transits if they have a delay on stage, but adopt the modified FAI system used in Canada and that's largely dealt with.

Do we need something like the APRC in North America? It might be interesting to see what could be done to bring teams up from Mexico and Central America, but my wild ass guess is that there would be a certain inequity between the teams that would leave the competition somewhat unbalanced, certainly Mexico has a tighter tie to the use of homologated cars.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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imnotcrazy
Let's take a vote. Who thinks the USA needs an FIA style rally?

I'll start. I don't. I think we need just plain old affordable good rallies. Forget the FIA etc BS.

Well when you have people who really haven't spent any serious time doing rally running rally, and clearly haven't a clue, those guys have to have some guidelines, so they think "derp derp da yup duh yup let's just adopt FIA rule book for International rallies and success will magically follow" .......except they don't see the change even in WRC from prior to the introduction of the World rally Car subset of Group A....From 200+ entries in popular WRC events to sometimes 35-39 cars---a startlingly huge success indeed.
Most countries where there is consistently big fields like 120 or more---have exempted the local guys from much of the WRC level prep and cage and procedural rules....

But those Federations have experience and the membership has experience---and some form of a vote.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

FIA again? Next? TV will make U.S. rally rich?

Funny stuff.

Maybe some of our colleagues who attended the regional event at Rally Mexico can talk about how much of the FIA rulebook they had to follow to compete. I assume that Rally USA 2015 in lovely Snowshoe, WV will have a regional component as well?

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Morison

Quote
imnotcrazy
Let's take a vote. Who thinks the USA needs an FIA style rally?
I'll start. I don't. I think we need just plain old affordable good rallies. Forget the FIA etc BS.

I don't get the difference.

Of course you don't.

Quote

Who says you can't have an FAI style rally that is also an affordable, good, rally.
Given that we will want to ignore the requirement for Homologated cars, what else comes with the FIA style that is 'BS.'

It's not just the "FIA "style", its the selective ignoring of the cage requirements steeply increasing the cost---from the complexity--of cages..

Or the pointless application of bullshit like I heard from a guy in Canada which at some small event where there was a "Parc Expose" or some such bullshit where the cars were lined up--the poor bastid was 4 minutes late---and some totally useless asshole of an official points to the rules for "parc Expose" and fines the poor bastid $400..

That is "kinda" FIA bullshit--and the official is a cunt who thinks he's "helping" rally..

Quote

Do we need something like the APRC in North America?

No. It's just a playground for a few ultra-rich no-bodies....No not if it adds $1 to the costs for the 99% of the entrants

Quote

It might be interesting to see what could be done to bring teams up from Mexico and Central America, but my wild ass guess is that there would be a certain inequity between the teams that would leave the competition somewhat unbalanced, certainly Mexico has a tighter tie to the use of homologated cars.

That's because in virtually all of Central and South America all rally is again just organised by rich people, for rich people, the whole sport is "of the ricj people" so if you have enough money to have a rally car, you have enough to pay insane prices for FIA Group N junk including restrictors and FIA $15/liter fuel...
That's because their societies are even more socially and economically stratified than the insane situation in USA.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
It's not just the "FIA "style", its the selective ignoring of the cage requirements steeply increasing the cost---from the complexity--of cages.

Any 'selective ignoring' is done in order to make the cages and equipment more affordable than following a strict application of the standards. The only other option would be NOT APPLYING standards, and I'm not sure that is a real option in today's society. (Look at all the 'hand holding' technology that goes into today's road cars...)

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john vanlandingham
Or the pointless application of bullshit like I heard from a guy in Canada which at some small event where there was a "Parc Expose" or some such bullshit where the cars were lined up--the poor bastid was 4 minutes late---and some totally useless asshole of an official points to the rules for "parc Expose" and fines the poor bastid $400.

For someone who gives me shit for not naming names or giving details down to the smallest point, this is a really vague comment. It's also so absurdly out of proportion that it can only be purposefully dishonest. If you don't want to go public with the information, then fine - PM me the details because I'm betting there is more to the story. (I'll also note that the fine for missing a parc expose is dictated as $50 in the CARS rule book)
As and organiser I've given fines for a range of things from recce speeding/behaviour, to completely missing the novice meeting. (which was clearly indicated in the competitor specific information given to the team)
But, $400 for being a bit late for Parc Expose... there's something not right about that story.

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john vanlandingham
That is "kinda" FIA bullshit--and the official is a cunt who thinks he's "helping" rally..

A cunt will always be a cunt, looking to the FIA regulations for direction isn't the cause of that.
If you think Parc Expose's are a FIA trickle down, they aren't. What they are is a great tool for building community support and bringing grass roots exposure of the sport to the local community. It's getting locals involved and getting new volunteers at at least a couple of the events in western Canada. They have their time and place, but I have tended to avoid them as an organizer myself.
The organizers of the recent Radium Hot Springs Rally were effectively told by the host community that they HAD to have a Parc Expose at the start of the event. (A community that demands involvement is a good thing to have)

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john vanlandingham

Quote

Do we need something like the APRC in North America?

No. It's just a playground for a few ultra-rich no-bodies....No not if it adds $1 to the costs for the 99% of the entrants

Agreed.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Jard
Maybe some of our colleagues who attended the regional event at Rally Mexico can talk about how much of the FIA rulebook they had to follow to compete.

FIA Prep rules? not really. Before going down to Mexico, we were told by the organizers that we would be tech'd by our rulebook (RA or NASA). The only extras were that drivers & codrivers must have fireproof footwear and that the car should have an X in the doorbars.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2014 12:41PM by johnhuebbe.

There's FIA cage rules, FIA event rules, FIA document rules, FIA car prep rules, FIA car class rules, FIA series rules, FIA license rules, FIA listing rules, and more I'm sure.

How much of any one of those applies to a particular event is negotiated and modified and massaged.

So when I hear either "the FIA rules are better" or "the FIA rules suck" I usually figure the conversation has already devolved to the point where it's not going to produce much.

Occasionally I ask of people who think that the FIA rules hold some magical goodness "Ok, which _particular_ rule in that book is better AND what big problem do you believe it solves?" Haven't had a response that moved me yet.

Anders

ps: magical goodness will save rally!

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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Anders Green
There's FIA cage rules, FIA event rules, FIA document rules, FIA car prep rules, FIA car class rules, FIA series rules, FIA license rules, FIA listing rules, and more I'm sure.

How much of any one of those applies to a particular event is negotiated and modified and massaged.

Indeed, there are even rules governing homologated radiator sizes. But if you are French and have designed WRC rally vehicles that overheat in a hot climate, you may cheat by fitting a different radiator and just pay a small fine.

Bribary and corruption will save rally!

---

Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

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john vanlandingham
Or the pointless application of bullshit like I heard from a guy in Canada which at some small event where there was a "Parc Expose" or some such bullshit where the cars were lined up--the poor bastid was 4 minutes late---and some totally useless asshole of an official points to the rules for "parc Expose" and fines the poor bastid $400.

I keep forgetting that the name of this sub forum is " Rumours, Lies & Damn Lies.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

There really is no big difference in FIA rules and NASA / RA rules.... And if there would be an FIA event in US, it is always possible have a national class competing also...

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Morison

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john vanlandingham
Or the pointless application of bullshit like I heard from a guy in Canada which at some small event where there was a "Parc Expose" or some such bullshit where the cars were lined up--the poor bastid was 4 minutes late---and some totally useless asshole of an official points to the rules for "parc Expose" and fines the poor bastid $400.

I keep forgetting that the name of this sub forum is " Rumours, Lies & Damn Lies.

Well Keithy, old friend.

I'm only accurately and faithfully reporting what the person who was talking to the person fined said, friend.
Seems really suspicious that you infer --and go so far as backhandedly suggest it here explcitly that I am lying--is the whole idea of lying something that is frequently on your mind as a explanation for things that sound screwy..?

I'll ask to scratch his head and come here to explain what he told me---so you can feel like a totally obnoxious raging asshole for suggesting I am lying...which you have done repeatedly.


Cowardly, backhanded accusations that people are liars will save rally!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
bttmotorsport
There really is no big difference in FIA rules and NASA / RA rules.... And if there would be an FIA event in US, it is always possible have a national class competing also...

Here's the bit that the proponents who shout must have "Best practices!! What would happen if we got sued and it was shown we weren't using best practices?"

8.3.2.1 Entretoises et renforts obligatoir
es Compulsory members and reinforcements
8.3.2.1.1 Entretoise diagonale Diagonal member
Voitures homologuées avant le 01.01.2002 :
L'armature doit comporter
une des entretoises diagonales
définies par les Dessins 253-4,
253-5 et 253-6. L'orientation
de la diagonale peut être inversée.
Dans le cas du Dessin 253-6, la distance entre les deux
ancrages sur la coque/châssis
ne doit pas être supérieure à
300 mm.
Les entretoises doivent être
rectilignes et peuvent être
amovibles.
L'extrémité supérieure de la
diagonale doit rejoindre l'arceau
principal à moins de 100 mm de sa jonction avec la jambe
de force arrière, ou la jambe de force arrière à moins de 100
mm de sa jonction avec l'arc
eau principal (voir Dessin 253-
52 pour la mesure).
L'extrémité inférieure de la
diagonale doit rejoindre l'arceau
principal ou la jambe de force arrière à moins de 100 mm du
pied d'ancrage (excepté dans le cas du Dessin 253-6).

Cars homologated before 01.01.2002 :
The cage must have one of the diagonal members defined
by Drawings 253-4, 253-5, 253-6. The orientation of the
diagonal may be reversed.
In the case of Drawing 253-6, the distance between the two
mountings on the bodyshell/chassis must not be greater than
300mm.
Members must be straight and may be removable.
The upper end of the diagonal must join the main rollbar no
further than 100 mm from its junction with the backstay, or
the backstay no more than 100 mm from its junction with the
main rollbar (see Drawing 253-52 for the measurement).
The lower end of the diagonal must join the main rollbar or
the backstay no further than 100 mm from the mounting foot
(except for the case of Drawing 253-6).
Voitures homologuées à partir du 01.01.2002 :
Cars homologated as from 01.01.2000.......


Point is some consideration is taken to the car's age and class---where none is here so even the slowest stock-est 1.3 has to have the same cage as a top tier WRC car...
which is flat foolish, and adds cost and complexity, and significantly

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2014 02:42PM by john vanlandingham.

Quote
john vanlandingham
I'm only accurately and faithfully reporting what the person who was talking to the person fined said, friend.

Um, so now you're saying it is second hand report of a $400 fine for being late to a Parc Expose?
What happened to:

Quote

Or the pointless application of bullshit like I heard from a guy in Canada which at some small event where there was a "Parc Expose" or some such bullshit where the cars were lined up--the poor bastid was 4 minutes late---and some totally useless asshole of an official points to the rules for "parc Expose" and fines the poor bastid $400..

The language use certainly suggests you were talking directly to 'the poor bastid.'
Regardless, this certainly makes it fall into the 'rumour' category and far from the 'fact' you make it out to be.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Seems really suspicious that you infer --and go so far as backhandedly suggest it here explcitly that I am lying--is the whole idea of lying something that is frequently on your mind as a explanation for things that sound screwy..?

Nothing suspicious about it. I do tend to look at past behaviour and use that to colour my take on any statement though.

Quote
john vanlandingham
I'll ask to scratch his head and come here to explain what he told me---

Why not share some of the specifics of the story you've heard yourself? I asked you to do just that, even in a PM if you didn't want to 'out' the person or situation specifically. You haven't.

Quote
john vanlandingham
...so you can feel like a totally obnoxious raging asshole for suggesting I am lying....which you have done repeatedly.

I only say you are lying when you ARE lying. Ok, in some cases you've changed your tune (as you have here) or claimed you were misunderstood, and actually meant something different than what you originally said... but, I digress.

Admittedly, it is hard to actually suggest you've lied in this case as you've couched it with 'a guy told me...' But, you haven't given it even the simplest of sniff tests to see if the story is legit before passing it along as true. adding insult to injury, you've denigrated volunteers who have put a lot of time and effort to make events happen along the way.

On the surface, the story reeks to high heaven. The fine is 8x the fine prescribed in the CARS rules, which take precedence over any other rules drafted. In short, without more details, the story doesn't stand even the slightest test...

Convince me with more (like even the event name) and I'll happily retract and apologize.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Cowardly, backhanded accusations that people are liars will save rally!

Funny you should say that...

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.