WTF

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ElectroTech
So what existing volunteer groups have been approached in the Columbia Valley?

Now, I wasn't directly involved in organising the first two years in Invermere, but I know several service clubs as well as snowmobile and other 'outdoors' clubs were tapped. I was at the first meeting in the area, and the chamber was clear with us that there are a lot of events happening in the area throughout the year and the need for volunteers is fairly saturated already.
Still worth pursuing, but that also takes time for someone to do.
Of course every event works closely with HAM Radio clubs in the area, since that is the backbone of our safety systems and Rocky has worked with the Legion and Rotary Club in the past, and Big White has worked with the Army Reserves.

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ElectroTech
I’d agree, most people like to make a weekend out of things. Travel Friday, home Sunday night type of thing. Not overlapping with other events in the PNW for those that don’t mind yuuuge drives.

The not overlapping thing is huge. Our events have been held on 'the same weekend' four just about ever. It is beyond annoying when the 'next closest event' parks itself on an adjacent weekend (or the same weekend.) The real hurt is for the volunteers, since there is a solid core that travel to every event they can do.

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ElectroTech
Seems CSCC and ERC don’t really march to the same drum, I know their are lots of members of ERC involved in stage Rally but it doesn’t appear to be a big thing on the organizations part.

There is always 'talk' of bringing Bighorn back... but the last one was 13 years ago. Putting on a stage event is a large undertaking, and has changed somewhat over that time.

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ElectroTech
Chasing affordability and overcoming the “big show” mentality need to be at the forefront, hard to get a bunch of sponsorship with the size of the fields...

I'm a little curious about what aspects you see as the 'big show.'
Certainly when I organize events my focus is on a good event for the competitors that also is as kind as possible to the volunteers. Spectators are then accommodated as we can.

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ElectroTech
...and I think it comes down to travel, if not the fact that someone in Edmonton, who is slightly interested in stage Rally, might wander on to the CARS site and see a few events, spread right across the country, and even the “local” ones being 13h away might not go any deeper.

13hrs is a stretch, but yah... travelling to get to events is part of living in Western Canada, particularly the prairies. When I lived in Winnipeg, I knew people who would drive 5 hrs (one way) to go hang gliding. If we look at Ontario again, if you live in Ottawa, you can do the entire Ontario Performance Rally Championship with less towing than a team in Calgary does to go to just one of PFR or Big White. Ottawa should be a hotbed of activity then... but it ain't.

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ElectroTech
I know John harps on the over the sea scene... the plain idea behind their tiny regions, and packed entry lists is clear to me.

Every now and then there is discussion on creating and focusing on regional championships, even to the extent of doing a PacNW championship that covers from BC to Oregon... maybe even NoCal. The latest effort - the Cascadia Cup - seems to have ended with not even a whimper.
Casual observation shows that being part of a 'national event' is attractive to competitors... even if they aren't actively chasing a national title. Our Western Canadian Nationals all offer a 'full distance' option for regional entries, but virtually everyone who is eligible to run nationally does... even if they have to buy a more expensive license to do so. In the east, regional portions of national events don't offer the full distance, but they get more 'regional only' entries that could run nationally if they wanted to.
We also offer a reduced milage/cheaper entry fee option that virtually no-one takes... so the message is mixed.

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First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2019 09:53PM by Not Trolling.

Big show, meaning $1200+ entries, fancy banquets/venues, tractor trailers, $12k suspension, and what that does to drive away the person looking for a motorsport to get involved in and what needs to happen to change that.

A better system to help people get builds done, network of cage builders, the man in Didsbury is hardly at the forefront of visibility, which is kind of sad given the quality of work he puts out whilst other “builders” leave people high and dry on the regular.

Once again, forget about Ontario, might as well be another planet, race tracks everywhere, huge organizations and marketing to entice people into them. Hardly grassroots much of that region.

The Cascadia Cup took on several thousand miles of driving....no wonder. There’s a lot working against growth, the build costs, travel costs, entry costs and time required outside of the actual race window. Need to look hard at returning some portion of the pot to either prizes, or maybe a better strategy would be discounts on future events to drive competition and incentivize involvement.

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Power means nothing if you cannot control it!

Serious, non-politically motivated question: Who is Mr. Socks? It's either the provincial guy or the federal guy and I've got no clue who is being referred to here.

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Not Trolling
Ottawa should be a hotbed of activity then... but it ain't

Why isn't Ottawa a hot bed? Pull out a map and draw a line between Kingston and Tobermory and you will find most of Ontario's population south of said line. Tall Pines is about 5-6 hours for me, Lanark is 6-7 hours and the Burnt River facility (Rallysprint location) is 3-4 hours.

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Not Trolling
Agreed, more promotion is important - but really falls down to the 'local' level if it is going to be done well.

Yet someone from, or appointed as a rep, needs to be involved as well.

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Not Trolling
with the truck, talk with your events and region about ways to be included.

I just used my own truck, and myself, as an example. Lots of old Crown Vics and Chargers available around here but I had to rule them out as a half decent, low costish, entry level option as the engine is simply too big. Why am I going to waste time figuring out who to speak to when I've had to eliminate the easier to find RWD cars. In 5 years or so there should be more options available as Subaru, Nissan, and Toyota do have RWD models that fit the rules.

RSO/OPRC uses the national rule set with some additions - exhibition class but the cars must abide by the national 4 class rules.

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Not Trolling
I'd love to hear more about a simple hard-cap on power and torque.
Lets say you limit open awd to 300whp/400ft lbs.
- How do you enforce that at an event?
- Is the power at sea level, or at the event's altitude? (and then at the highest elevation of the event, the lowest elevation, or at service park)
- How do you prevent a dieselgate situation where the car is tested on one map and is on stage with another map?

Policing would be difficult, but not impossible. I would need to spend some time spitballing ideas with scrutineers and those more familiar with the tech to offer more suggestions other than a portable dyno testing all cars in the service park. Preventing a dieselgate would probably be the most difficult part. Harsh penalties would be the biggest motivating factors such as a full loss of points earned from an event to complete loss of all points earned, and to be earned, that season effectively removing the cheater from winning a championship (especially when only 6 of 8 events will count towards the championship).

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Not Trolling
Ontario is starting up a rallysprint series of 3 events this year, and it looks like it is getting some traction

Thanks for saying this as this is the first I've heard of it. With that said, I had to do some digging to find some information on this. $750 entry was all I could glean from Facebook before the popup appears, blocking my full screen, telling me to register and the PMSC website for dates and location, assuming the location remains the same for all 3.

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Not Trolling
Events like Perce Neige, Defi, or any of the Ontario Championship events are struggling and they are all 3 hrs-ish from major centres.

Define the major centres though. I'm in the heartland of Ontario at the 401/403 junction and there is nothing within 3 hours of me, on our side of the border at least as I haven't looked at New York events, outside of a couple of rallycross events in the Niagara area.

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ElectroTech
Once again, forget about Ontario, might as well be another planet, race tracks everywhere, huge organizations and marketing to entice people into them. Hardly grassroots much of that region.

Lots of grassroots motorsports going on down here. Lots of guys building and running 1/4 mile cars and the bone stock class at the oval tracks have seen large growth numbers. Even the truck and tractor pullers have added more events and more competitors. A better question would be: what would it take to entice these competitors to try rally? An even better question is: why would these guys spend $7-15,000 to run one or two events a season?

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Fulcrum
Serious, non-politically motivated question: Who is Mr. Socks? It's either the provincial guy or the federal guy and I've got no clue who is being referred to here.

LOL, see, here is what I mean. I’m talking the right nonerable Slime Minister.....

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Power means nothing if you cannot control it!

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Fulcrum

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ElectroTech
Once again, forget about Ontario, might as well be another planet, race tracks everywhere, huge organizations and marketing to entice people into them. Hardly grassroots much of that region.

Lots of grassroots motorsports going on down here. Lots of guys building and running 1/4 mile cars and the bone stock class at the oval tracks have seen large growth numbers. Even the truck and tractor pullers have added more events and more competitors. A better question would be: what would it take to entice these competitors to try rally? An even better question is: why would these guys spend $7-15,000 to run one or two events a season?

Lots, and well established......so beyond the “grassroots” phase? Tractor pulls some running what 60+ years, oval tracks even older....that’s hardly just getting going.
The lack of close by events is certainly what I’m getting at along with the cost.

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Power means nothing if you cannot control it!

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Fulcrum
Serious, non-politically motivated question: Who is Mr. Socks? It's either the provincial guy or the federal guy and I've got no clue who is being referred to here.

Trudeau.
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/the-year-in-justin-trudeaus-socks/

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Fulcrum
Why isn't Ottawa a hot bed?

Lots of opportunities, but low entry numbers.

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Fulcrum
Pull out a map and draw a line between Kingston and Tobermory and you will find most of Ontario's population south of said line. Tall Pines is about 5-6 hours for me, Lanark is 6-7 hours and the Burnt River facility (Rallysprint location) is 3-4 hours.
I'm in the heartland of Ontario at the 401/403 junction

If you live at 401/403 it shouldn't take you 5 hours to get to Bancroft, I've done Pearson to Bancroft in 3, at a leisurely pace.

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Fulcrum
I just used my own truck, and myself, as an example. Lots of old Crown Vics and Chargers available around here but I had to rule them out as a half decent, low costish, entry level option as the engine is simply too big.

The cost of the good starting shell is a small part of any build. A Crown Vic is a horrible place to start for a rally car, the reason you don't see them on stage has nothing to do with being outside of the rules. (Same can be said about v8 trucks to some degree.)
Start a thread about building a Crown Vic or a v8 Truck and I'll let John explain why.

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Fulcrum
Policing would be difficult, but not impossible. I would need to spend some time spitballing ideas with scrutineers and those more familiar with the tech to offer more suggestions...

Spitballing to date has come up with restrictors and popoff valves.

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Fulcrum

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Not Trolling
Ontario is starting up a rallysprint series of 3 events this year, and it looks like it is getting some traction

Thanks for saying this as this is the first I've heard of it. With that said, I had to do some digging to find some information on this. $750 entry was all I could glean from Facebook before the popup appears, blocking my full screen, telling me to register and the PMSC website for dates and location, assuming the location remains the same for all 3.

Looks like they are relying on Facebook
I read it as $750 for all three events, different locations (and host clubs) for each event. 15 entries MAX this year, but a look to expand it for future years.

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Fulcrum

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Not Trolling
Events like Perce Neige, Defi, or any of the Ontario Championship events are struggling and they are all 3 hrs-ish from major centres.

Define the major centres though. I'm in the heartland of Ontario at the 401/403 junction and there is nothing within 3 hours of me, on our side of the border at least as I haven't looked at New York events, outside of a couple of rallycross events in the Niagara area.

In my mind, "ish" buys me up to 4 hours and according to Google Maps times you're within 4 hours of all the Ontario events and 6 hrs to Perce Neige. Google maps can be off, by a bit, but not that much.

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First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2019 08:14PM by Not Trolling.

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Fulcrum
Lots of grassroots motorsports going on down here. Lots of guys building and running 1/4 mile cars and the bone stock class at the oval tracks have seen large growth numbers. Even the truck and tractor pullers have added more events and more competitors. A better question would be: what would it take to entice these competitors to try rally? An even better question is: why would these guys spend $7-15,000 to run one or two events a season?

The Ontario Performance Rally Championship is a 5 event series, Rallye Perce Neige, Lanark Highlands Forest Rally, Black Bear Rally, Rallye Defi, and Rally of the Tall Pines.
The reality is that between towing, accommodations, and running costs, reprep you'll spend $7500 to do the season without touching the cap cost of the personal safety gear, rally car, trailer, or tow pig. (Cost will vary with the car run, but this is probably a low guess.) If you think you can do it for less, then you're not counting your actual costs or you're fooling yourself. (in my opinion, of course.)

15 years ago I was spending ~2k a weekend on average without having to do ANY major work on the car, and I had free gravel tires, and I ran the same pads/rotors for the season, and we shared accommodations as tightly as we could, and so-on.
It is hard to compare the sport to local dirt track, or other grass roots sports, because it isn't the same for so many reasons.
I co-drove for a guy that came out of local dirt track, where he dominated, and while rally cost him a lot more to do, he loved the sport and said dirt track just didn't do it for him anymore.

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First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2019 08:17PM by Not Trolling.

Now that we've gone this far off topic from the OP.

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ElectroTech
LOL, see, here is what I mean. I’m talking the right nonerable Slime Minister.....

Let's see what November brings and hopefully we don't get what the media tells us we want. That or let's wall off Toronto and leave them to their own schemes.

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ElectroTech
Lots, and well established......so beyond the “grassroots” phase?

I think we need to define "grassroots" here as I think you're referring more to events and competitions, while I'm referring to drivers and builders with a minimal budget.

While the facilities and competitions may not be grassroots in and of themselves, many of the competitors, especially those running in the entry level stock classes, are.

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Not Trolling
The cost of the good starting shell is a small part of any build. A Crown Vic is a horrible place to start for a rally car, the reason you don't see them on stage has nothing to do with being outside of the rules. (Same can be said about v8 trucks to some degree.)
Start a thread about building a Crown Vic or a v8 Truck and I'll let John explain why.

In my case, the rules are the only reason I didn't look closer at any of these. I didn't say "good, starting shell" because I'd than be looking at either a Subaru ($10-12k before cage, safety gear, tires, spares), Mini ($6-8k), RX-7 (love the car but getting hard to find parts for) or Ford Fiesta (personally don't like hatches aside from the Mini). I looked at what vehicles are around locally that I won't have a hard time finding body panels and drive train parts. Around here, that leaves larger sedans and trucks being as there aren't all that many Volvos, Xratty's (only know of 2 in the area and both owned by the same guy), non-hatch Fiestas, Civics, etc, and BMW's are just plain pricey to get parts for. Yet I could find a Crown Vic or Dodge Charger with a decent body for under $1500 if I wanted RWD or a Nissan if I want FWD. Please bear in mind these are what's easily available at the scrapyards within 45 minutes of here.

I've read John's posts as to why these larger sedans, and trucks, are not a "good" shell (I think I've read every post in that section), but I'm not building my first car to win a championship. I'm building the car to have fun, maybe try to put on a bit of a show if I get on a stage (at the very least a highlight reel worthy DNF without injuries). I would fall under exhibition class rules rather than general competition rules as I'm not out there to get, or steal, points.

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Not Trolling
In my mind, "ish" buys me up to 4 hours and according to Google Maps times you're within 4 hours of all the Ontario events and 6 hrs to Perce Neige.

7 hour minimum to Perce Neige. 4.5 - 5 hours for Lanark and the rest. I misjudged where Lanark is run as I thought it was east of Ottawa.

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Not Trolling
It is hard to compare the sport to local dirt track, or other grass roots sports, because it isn't the same for so many reasons

Agreed. The closest type of event would be Targa. Yet if the sport is to grow, than why not, at the very least, try to get a few of those who run at the local tracks to spend their money and time putting their building and driving skills up against some of the best out there.

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Not Trolling
The reality is that between towing, accommodations, and running costs, reprep you'll spend $7500 to do the season without touching the cap cost of the personal safety gear, rally car, trailer, or tow pig.

Yet the $7500-15K number that I put out was for only 1 or 2 events and not a full season, so I think I do have a decent starting point when it comes to costs (about $2500 for each weekend + car and gear).

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Fulcrum
Now that we've gone this far off topic from the OP.

It's called Anarchy for a reason. Straying well off topic is SOP around here.

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Fulcrum
I think we need to define "grassroots" here as I think you're referring more to events and competitions, while I'm referring to drivers and builders with a minimal budget.

It always helps when you can agree on what means what. I was thinking exactly what you were when it comes to 'grassroots' being more about the competitor than the events themselves, but also that the approach is reflected - to some degree - in the event operations as well. in my mind, an event that has been running for 60 years can still be a 'grassroots' event, and similarly a brand new event can be 'high end' or 'eltiest.'

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Fulcrum
Yet I could find a Crown Vic or Dodge Charger with a decent body for under $1500 if I wanted RWD or a Nissan if I want FWD. Please bear in mind these are what's easily available at the scrapyards within 45 minutes of here.

I'd suggest you are focussing on the junkyard availability a bit too much, and need to consider the value of building something that has been built before, has readily available rally parts, and gives you a good starting platform that you can build on and improve as you progress. The added benefit is that if you do your 'three events' and leave the sport, just about anything will be easier to sell than a crown vic with a 253-8 cage in it. You should never plan to need to recover money from a rally build, but you should also never plan to NOT be able to recover some of your build cost.

I still recommend buying a first car, but that's a whole other argument.

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Fulcrum
7 hour minimum to Perce Neige. 4.5 - 5 hours for Lanark and the rest. I misjudged where Lanark is run as I thought it was east of Ottawa.

In other words, all within a reasonable driving distance. 7 hours you can work till 5 and still get in to the hotel at a reasonable hour.

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Fulcrum

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Not Trolling
It is hard to compare the sport to local dirt track, or other grass roots sports, because it isn't the same for so many reasons

Agreed. The closest type of event would be Targa. Yet if the sport is to grow, than why not, at the very least, try to get a few of those who run at the local tracks to spend their money and time putting their building and driving skills up against some of the best out there.[/quote]
Rallying is tough all around. From logistics, to time commitment, to car prep and re-prep. I've regularly seen* guys come from other motorsports regularly shake their heads and leave... unless they 'get' the sport and enjoy - at least at some level - the challenges of simply taking part. Funny thing is that they also often come back and enjoy themselves once they understand the challenges an lean to appreciate the 'rally family.'
(*anecdotal observations, not a scientific or all encompassing study by any means.)

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Fulcrum
Yet the $7500-15K number that I put out was for only 1 or 2 events and not a full season, so I think I do have a decent starting point when it comes to costs (about $2500 for each weekend + car and gear).

Next time you're volunteering at an event, try and help with tech and ask around about what people are spending on builds and where they are getting some key things done. LOOK at every car and see what works and what doesn't. Talk with the tech people about your ideas and get their feedback now, rather than at tech for your first event.

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First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

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Not Trolling

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Fulcrum
Now that we've gone this far off topic from the OP.

It's called Anarchy for a reason. Straying well off topic is SOP around here.

What you call Anarchy most call conversation....lol

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Power means nothing if you cannot control it!

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Not Trolling
I've regularly seen* guys come from other motorsports regularly shake their heads and leave... unless they 'get' the sport ...

As an organizer you'd see and hear more about that than I would.

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Not Trolling
I'd suggest you are focussing on the junkyard availability a bit too much, and need to consider the value of building something that has been built before

Which would put entering at at least double the cost which would than "force" me to try and get a better return by pushing, possibly too hard and too early, for a podium. It's a mindset difference between someone coming in just to have some fun sideways and getting in some stage miles as opposed to someone who's been around for a while and competes only to win.

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Not Trolling
You should never plan to need to recover money from a rally build, but you should also never plan to NOT be able to recover some of your build cost.

I don't think I've met anyone, outside of restorers, who has ever had the "recover money" thought when building a rally/race car.

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Not Trolling
I still recommend buying a first car, but that's a whole other argument.

Though I agree on this being a whole other argument, I'm still going to comment on it. I decided to build because it gets my butt off the couch and I get to learn new things. Is this the best method to enter rally, especially since this is an "unsupported" car (B16 Nissan Sentra)? For some yes and for others no. I'll find out how well I did once I get it out on stage, or at least on local shakedown drives, both on (following the proper rules) and off road.

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Fulcrum

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Not Trolling
I'd suggest you are focussing on the junkyard availability a bit too much, and need to consider the value of building something that has been built before...

Which would put entering at at least double the cost which would than "force" me to try and get a better return by pushing, possibly too hard and too early, for a podium. It's a mindset difference between someone coming in just to have some fun sideways and getting in some stage miles as opposed to someone who's been around for a while and competes only to win.

Or, a mindset difference between someone who's seen a lot of people come into the sport with varied approaches and varied successes and someone who wants to do their own thing... which is fine. Just sayin' that building something like a Crown Vic is a path that would likely lead to frustration and disappointment... and few smiles per mile even when you do get it on stage. (and likely no cheaper than building the 'right' car.)

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Fulcrum
I don't think I've met anyone, outside of restorers, who has ever had the "recover money" thought when building a rally/race car.

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After one event, I sold my first build (2nd gen RX7) for exactly what I had put into it... but I was lucky and had the right buyer for it. I didn't plan to sell it, but the right circumstances came up.
The point was that any money put into building a Crown Vic ('cause that's what you mentioned) is likely thrown away while building something more commonly campaigned would allow you to probably recover a bit more in any event.

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Fulcrum
Though I agree on this being a whole other argument, I'm still going to comment on it. I decided to build because it gets my butt off the couch and I get to learn new things. Is this the best method to enter rally, especially since this is an "unsupported" car (B16 Nissan Sentra)? For some yes and for others no. I'll find out how well I did once I get it out on stage, or at least on local shakedown drives, both on (following the proper rules) and off road.

There have been a few Sentras run, but older body styles I think, so not a completely orphaned choice.
Without a doubt you'll learn a lot building your first car. For some, this is absolutely the way to go. For others, it isn't. I know several people who bought their first cars just to see if they are inetrested in the sport, and who were able to do a few events, learn build techniques and preferences from the 'mistakes' of their 'beginner car' and go on to build beautiful cars that were well put together after that.
I've also seen more people 'buy and try' the sport than I have seen 'wanna-be' builds completed. That is kind of frustrating. I've also seen people spend years on a build only to come out and realize they don't like the sport, or that it is more challenging than they thought.
But, this really is another argument completely.

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First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022