Geeeze I always read these "I don't need to steer" things on amateur forums in the US and wonder : why does every car that goes quick SINCE FOREVER in the rest of the world have quick steering around 2.0 to 2.2 turns max AND when we see in-car we see even the WRC heroes driving with the steering wheel.
Guess they don't know what they're doing.

Years ago there was a long thread on SS.com and I think I found in-car vids showing the best guys really whipping the wheel and added to it that those cars had about 1,9turns----which means that much wheel movement is even MORE steering than x amount with a slow ratio.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Watch the front wheels on a WRC car. WOW, they move a lot!

I wish it was easier to find the actual steering ratio published anywhere, as this turns lock-to-lock BS is meaningless. Every car has the steering locks in different places. I can turn the front wheels of my 510 WAY farther than an EVO can, but that doesn't make my steering any slower. The 15:1 steering box makes my steering slower. EVO is around 13:1. STi is 15:1. Regular WRX is more like 17:1. Mazda3 is around 15.3 or so. Hondas tend to be 85:1, it seems...

13:1 is about the comfort limit on pavement. I'd guess something more like 10:1 before things get too twitchy in gravel.

-Dave


john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Geeeze I always read these "I don't need to
> steer" things on amateur forums in the US and
> wonder : why does every car that goes quick SINCE
> FOREVER in the rest of the world have quick
> steering around 2.0 to 2.2 turns max AND when we
> see in-car we see even the WRC heroes driving with
> the steering wheel.
> Guess they don't know what they're doing.
>
> Years ago there was a long thread on SS.com and I
> think I found in-car vids showing the best guys
> really whipping the wheel and added to it that
> those cars had about 1,9turns----which means that
> much wheel movement is even MORE steering than x
> amount with a slow ratio.
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

Doesn't the length of the steering arm on the knuckle play a part in quickeness of steering as well? and...

What about increasing capacity of steering angle? Like those drift guys modify their front ends so they can turn their front wheels even further than before and achieve greater steering angles. This is what seems so good about the old MKII Escorts was the front wheels seemed to turn all the way to 90 degrees.

So it kind of seems pointless to say 1.5 or 2 or 3 turns lock to lock is correct unless you're comparing apples to apples, ie: the same make and model car.

---

Michael LeCompte

pikespeakgtx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn't the length of the steering arm on the
> knuckle play a part in quickeness of steering as
> well? and...
>

Yes it does, but if you change the arm length with out moving the rack location you are changing both the bump steer characteristics and the Ackerman geometry.


> What about increasing capacity of steering angle?
> Like those drift guys modify their front ends so
> they can turn their front wheels even further than
> before and achieve greater steering angles. This
> is what seems so good about the old MKII Escorts
> was the front wheels seemed to turn all the way to
> 90 degrees.
>

Depends on the car but most FWD and AWD cars are already at the limit of the stock CV joints as soon as you put some decent travel struts on them.

pikespeakgtx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn't the length of the steering arm on the
> knuckle play a part in quickeness of steering as
> well? and...
>
> What about increasing capacity of steering angle?
> Like those drift guys modify their front ends so
> they can turn their front wheels even further than
> before and achieve greater steering angles. This
> is what seems so good about the old MKII Escorts
> was the front wheels seemed to turn all the way to
> 90 degrees.

Nearly all old rwd cars let the wheels turn nearly like a fork-lift, hell look at old first gen Jap pick-ups, those ol Datsuns would really turn nearly sideways, You could hear the spindles GROAN, but they whip around.

>
> So it kind of seems pointless to say 1.5 or 2 or 3
> turns lock to lock is correct unless you're
> comparing apples to apples, ie: the same make and
> model car.

Well yes and no, it's just shorthand anyway.

RATIOS are what ought to count but best is RACK TRAVEL IN MM PER TURN.,
sO THERE NYAH NYAH.
We did use different knuckles from some FWD POS Maz-dog on Derek Bottles car way back, and got quicker steering, and didn't SEEM any worse than OEM for bump or droop steer.
>
>
> Michael LeCompte

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> We did use different knuckles from some FWD POS
> Maz-dog on Derek Bottles car way back, and got
> quicker steering, and didn't SEEM any worse than
> OEM for bump or droop steer.

I guess the fix for the bumpsteer issue on the gtx with FWD 323 knuckles is to use the S13 Nissan 240sx adjustable outer tie rod ends like in the pictures for bout $85.

I've never held them in my hand but looks like you can add spacers above and below the spherical ball in order to get the tie rod flat with the ground again.

I always thought caster played the biggest role in the Ackerman principle.

So shorter steering arm on the knuckle will make it come back to straight faster than a long arm would?

Oh and I was pretty blown away to see the rx-7 4 pots on the REAR of bottles gtx... I woulda thunk 1.38" piston woulda given the car to much rear bias. You were able to dial it back out with a proportioning valve ehh?
As I recall you used 1.62" pistons up front in those wilwoods.

---

Michael LeCompte

Tim Taylor Wrote:

> Yes it does, but if you change the arm length with
> out moving the rack location you are changing both
> the bump steer characteristics and the Ackerman
> geometry.

Roger that on the Ackerman geometry. But do we know for sure that it will change? I see what you're saying, the imaginary lines extending form the steering arms may not intersect in the same place as before if you switch to a shorter arm.

But you might keep it the same if you extend the tie rod end to meet the arm in the new location and the angle at which the steering arm comes off the knuckle is the same?

---

Michael LeCompte

> > So it kind of seems pointless to say 1.5 or 2
> or 3
> > turns lock to lock is correct unless you're
> > comparing apples to apples, ie: the same make
> and
> > model car.
>
> Well yes and no, it's just shorthand anyway.
>
> RATIOS are what ought to count but best is RACK
> TRAVEL IN MM PER TURN.,
> sO THERE NYAH NYAH.

I think overall ratio (steering wheel turns to front wheel turns) is better than rack mm. (not that either is readily available). Rack travel requires comparing steering arm length, which can vary wildy from one car to the next. Overall ratio only requires comparing wheelbase, which varies much less (and still matters on the other measurement anyway.)

I just stumbled into a perfect worst-case of when lock-to-lock will steer you wrong: Forester and WRX have the same turns lock to lock, same wheelbase, same almost everything, but the Forester is a variable ratio rack, starting at a bus-like 19.1:1 in the middle and quickening to 15.2:1 toward the ends. WRX is 16.5:1 everywhere (not, apparently, the 17:1 I said earlier. IDIOT!)

And probably most important, lock-to-lock can be measured easily on any car by any person, but rack ratio can only be looked up on the interwebs. Rack ratio therefore gives you an excuse to sit on your ass in front of the comptuter instead of going out into the scary, greasy world.

-D

pikespeakgtx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > We did use different knuckles from some FWD
> POS
> > Maz-dog on Derek Bottles car way back, and
> got
> > quicker steering, and didn't SEEM any worse
> than
> > OEM for bump or droop steer.
>
> I guess the fix for the bumpsteer issue on the gtx
> with FWD 323 knuckles is to use the S13 Nissan
> 240sx adjustable outer tie rod ends like in the
> pictures for bout $85.
>
> I've never held them in my hand but looks like you
> can add spacers above and below the spherical ball
> in order to get the tie rod flat with the ground
> again.
>
> I always thought caster played the biggest role in
> the Ackerman principle.
>
> So shorter steering arm on the knuckle will make
> it come back to straight faster than a long arm
> would?
>
> Oh and I was pretty blown away to see the rx-7 4
> pots on the REAR of bottles gtx... I woulda thunk
> 1.38" piston woulda given the car to much rear
> bias. You were able to dial it back out with a
> proportioning valve ehh?
> As I recall you used 1.62" pistons up front in
> those wilwoods.
>
>
> Michael LeCompte


No on that we used some Superlites with 4 x 1.75"pistons so the bigger rears worked pretty damn good.
And I have another new set of those should anybody need. set up for .810 rotor.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

ofcourse quick steering racks, are good for the people who know how to use them.

You still do use alot of steering to get into the corner, but after that corrrections should require very little.

The problem i see is...90% of the novice type guys want a "quick rack" because all the cool kids have it. So they go put one in the car....

...then they end up sawing the wheel more than a lumberjack in the forest.

---

Chris

All I know is I ran three rallies before a quicker steering setup and spun the car twice.

After the quicker steering setup we spun the car once, on its top.

The confidence inspired by the quicker steering allowed us to go faster. Way Faster. I will never run a fwd vw without a quicker steering setup.

now to figure out if I need a 2.0:1 or a 1.5:1 quickener....hmm

---

-Tom
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Tom you can switch out the ratio in the Howe between 1.5 and 2.0 for about 60$ in parts.

http://www.stockcarproducts.com/steer4.htm

Or just go with the stealth and pretend your a WRC driver with your 1.5 lock to lock. Look ma no hand over hand

---

-Jason

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Geeeze I always read these "I don't need to
> steer" things on amateur forums in the US and
> wonder : why does every car that goes quick SINCE
> FOREVER in the rest of the world have quick
> steering around 2.0 to 2.2 turns max AND when we
> see in-car we see even the WRC heroes driving with
> the steering wheel.
> Guess they don't know what they're doing.
>
> Years ago there was a long thread on SS.com and I
> think I found in-car vids showing the best guys
> really whipping the wheel and added to it that
> those cars had about 1,9turns----which means that
> much wheel movement is even MORE steering than x
> amount with a slow ratio.
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

Its about style "I" would think ...Tight Europe is not flat and fast America.. WRC are not club cars ... If you "back hack" a RWD as I do .."I" seem to not need a quickener...Not that some do like quickeners...Thats good that they work for them.. If I was to say that the only way to drive is like the Team O'Neal school.. You would scream like I kicked you in the nuts John ... And your right... Theres many ways to drive ...So why say we all should drive like the over sea's boys..???

The same with e-brakes ... They seem to be to much thrashing around in the cockpit for me ...But have been for rides with Cable Roads and Roger Hull and they seem to like them and they work for them ... Try as I may ..They just do not fit "my" style ...So to say to someone who has never raced they most have ether ..Is off info ... Do some driving first ..Then see if they work for you..

Its all about what works for you...No disrespect to you John..

To each there own ...Theres lots of ways to race any sort of racing...

David

Hazardous Toys inc

I installed my quickener, Coleman 1.5:1, and noticed a small amount of play. I am guessing 3 degrees.
-Is this something common?
-Do you feel it on stage?
-Does it get worse with time?
I am considering adding a support for the shaft towards the steering wheel to keep the bending loads down(it is about 10 inches from the end of the quickenener to the steering wheel rim).

George

---

Civic Rally Car

that Släggräser video is amazing, he's got one hand on the wheel 85% of the time. gotta have a quickener