Yup - I find it rediculous that people get so bent out of shape when all they have to do is say "no". Are we loosing are ability or will to barter and negotiate?

Every commercial exchange has someone putting together a deal, and someone else accepting the deal.

If you're on the selling side, and someone low-balls you - you have a choice, counter or walk - but getting pissed off about it seems very strange to me.

Maybe its my Italian background - but every deal is negotiable - no one wants to pay retail if they can avoid it - and everyone I know has some buffer built into their list price - and if you don't you should.

When large companies strike multi million or billion dollar deals - do you think they take the first offer? Hell no, and they act as if you should be giving it all to them for free - but we all know its part of the game - because they also know that you've built in buffer for the negotiation.

I think there's also a place for people that believe in their quality and worth and say "Hey, that's what I'm worth, that's what its going to cost - if you want to go with a lower or unknown quality that costs you less - so be it. But my quality is worth x"

I dunno - that's the way I see it.

I like the italian comment^ I too find it hard to resist the inherant Italian way of doing bussiness where the first quoted price is just a starting point for negotiations over good Grappa!

But if I believe in anything, it's fairness. If I go to get a cage done by a well known builder in North America like Dave Clark, Sprongles, VSC etc etc then I know the end product I'm getting is worth exactly what I paid for it. That's called VALUE.

Lets say you took the time and money to learn to build as well as say Dave Clark. Then you practiced that art over lets say a deacade. So you go and build yourself a cage for the cost of RETAIL material, your time and your own welder and electricity.
Now have you gotten good VALUE???

You get what you pay for.

Dave

---

Gone fishing

Fawk me do I have to settle everything:




Guess I have to fix everything , me works never done, fawk me.....
BRIAN:
How much? Quick.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
What?
BRIAN:
It's for the wife.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Oh. Uhhh, twenty shekels.
BRIAN:
Right.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
What?
BRIAN:
There you are.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Wait a minute.
BRIAN:
What?
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Well, we're-- we're supposed to haggle.
BRIAN:
No, no. I've got to get--
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
What do you mean, 'no, no, no'?
BRIAN:
I haven't time. I've got--
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Well, give it back, then.
BRIAN:
No, no, no. I just paid you.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Burt!
BURT:
Yeah?
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
This bloke won't haggle.
BURT:
Won't haggle?!
BRIAN:
All right. Do we have to?
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Now, look. I want twenty for that.
BRIAN:
I-- I just gave you twenty.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Now, are you telling me that's not worth twenty shekels?
BRIAN:
No.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Look at it. Feel the quality. That's none of your goat.
BRIAN:
All right. I'll give you nineteen then.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
No, no, no. Come on. Do it properly.
BRIAN:
What?
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Haggle properly. This isn't worth nineteen.
BRIAN:
Well, you just said it was worth twenty.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Ohh, dear. Ohh, dear. Come on. Haggle.
BRIAN:
Huh. All right. I'll give you ten.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
That's more like it. Ten?! Are you trying to insult me?! Me, with a poor dying grandmother?! Ten?!
BRIAN:
All right. I'll give you eleven.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Now you're gettin' it. Eleven?! Did I hear you right?! Eleven?! This cost me twelve. You want to ruin me?!
BRIAN:
Seventeen?
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
No, no, no, no. Seventeen.
BRIAN:
Eighteen?
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
No, no. You go to fourteen now.
BRIAN:
All right. I'll give you fourteen.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Fourteen?! Are you joking?!
BRIAN:
That's what you told me to say.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Ohh, dear.
BRIAN:
Ohh, tell me what to say. Please!
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Offer me fourteen.
BRIAN:
I'll give you fourteen.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
He's offering me fourteen for this!
BRIAN:
Fifteen!
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Seventeen. My last word. I won't take a penny less, or strike me dead.
BRIAN:
Sixteen.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Done. Nice to do business with you.
BRIAN:
Huh.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Tell you what. I'll throw you in this as well.
BRIAN:
I don't want it, but thanks.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Burt!
BURT:
Yeah?
BRIAN:
All right! All right! All right!
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Now, where's the sixteen you owe me?
BRIAN:
I just gave you twenty.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Oh, yeah. That's right. That's four I owe you, then.
BRIAN:
Well, that's all right. That's fine. That's fine.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
No. Hang on. I've got it here somewhere.
BRIAN:
That's all right. That's four for the gourd.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Four? For this gourd? Four?! Look at it. It's worth ten if it's worth a shekel.
BRIAN:
But you just gave it to me for nothing.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Yes, but it's worth ten!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Aw, bugger.

Good news, though. The guy who bought the engine out of my old Talon dropped by last night with $500 cash of the $950 he still owed me. Vanessa wants it in the bank, but I want it in the sock drawer with "CAGE" written on the envelope.

How many shekels is that? LOL

(Gonna try to have a cage in the car by summer.)

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Wow, some serious feelings expressed here.

Building the roll-cage is skilled work. Its like building a boat or a guitar. The first one you make yourself is going to be a bit fucked up, even if you are an excellent welder and have a knack for laying things out in 3D.

I am all for people taking on projects and learning new things, but to be realistic, build yourself only if you really want to learn how to do it. And then you are going to use twice the tubing (messed up bends and cuts) and at least 100 hours. Don't forget tool$. Overhead welding takes LOTS of practice. Plus, your life is hanging on it. Would you check out the surgery text book at the library and figure it out yourself, or go see a doc when you need that apendix out? (personally, I am all for DIY surgery).

If you want to learn to make cages, start by making friends with a pro, then remember most pros charge extra if you watch, and double if you help.

If you want to get it done, don't skimp, you get what you pay for and nothing looks sadder than a crappy rollcage. Get the best person you can find. If you are on a tight budget, try to do as much prep yourself, so the car is ready for the builder (stripped, scraped and porno mags in the glove box).


good luck!
-Al

alkun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> If you want to learn to make cages, start by
> making friends with a pro, then remember most pros
> charge extra if you watch, and double if you
> help.
>

And quadruple if you laugh!

>If you want to get it done, don't skimp, you get what you pay for and nothing looks sadder than a crappy rollcage.
>

The unfortunate thing is you don't always get what you pay for. Sometimes people don't know what they are doing yet still charge a lot. We have a Lamborghini Gallardo in our shop right now that the customer uses for track days. It's got a 4 point roll bar in it and it's possibly the worst thing I've ever seen. Apparently it was built by the Lambo shop or something. It does not appear that a tubing bender was used, more like they bent it between the trunks of a couple of trees. Flattened, distorted bends. All the welds have been ground down and even that didn't hide the fact that they were really bad. Plus, how it mounts. Guess they didn't want to drill any holes in the floor so they made brackets that sandwich between the seat and the seat mounts! And even those brackets aren't welded to the main hoop legs but apparently there's a nut welded up inside the and the floor plate bolts up to the bottom of the main hoop leg. And the whole thing is either stainless steel or just mild steel sanded and clearcoated to look like stainless, I haven't checked that closer yet. I guess the guy paid like $3000 for this job! I'm clearly not charging enough...
So yeah, check out your cage builder first.

There are cage builders who don't do a great job. I've seen bars poorly placed, missing bars ( so how do you see a missing bar you should ask), missing welds, wrong sized tubing, wrong rule set and from pros none the less. The amature stuff is just as interesting.

If you get the right tubing, the right bender, a good welder (both kinds), the right design you can save some money. Still it would likely be cheaper to get a second job flipping burgers and let Dave do it right the first time. With input from sites like this a person has a better chance of getting it right, but lives really do hang in the balance.

I had a guy price a cage from me, and I was not overpriced. He then did his own. Apparently he didn't like it and cut it out and did another. Brought it in for a log book. Unfortunately he used a Harbor Freight bender and bends weren't legal. So 2 cages no good. He asked me how much to do a cage now. I refused since I just flunked his cage, conflict of interest thing. So he had another pro do it. What do ya figure that whole mess must have cost?

Buy a cage from a pro. or, even better help your pro friend build the cage. Eric Langbein, jeremy and I built the cage in our first car. Now he is building another most excellent cage in a new shell.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4191095

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

> You're totally missing my point. My post wasn't
> intended to be about me but as an example to show
> the point of view of people who are in this
> business to eke out a living in general. We see
> this all the time, people who can't afford their
> hobby, or more commonly who can but choose to try
> to get something for free or at a huge discount
> because they think $2000 or whatever is too much
> to spend on a rollcage for their rally car. Can't
> afford that because they just bought some bitchin'
> new rims for their daily driver Evo X or STi or
> whatever. So the guy who is building the rollcage
> that might just save your life is supposed to take
> it in the shorts so you don't have to spend as
> much on your hobby? I'm not saying this is your
> guyses situation specifically but we see it all
> the time and your selfish post suggesting you
> lowball cage builders was insulting and hit a
> nerve. Judging by some of the responses I'm not
> the only one who feels this way. Sure, you may
> find someone who will work for food in these lean
> times but do you really want to trust your life to
> the lowest bidder?
> When people try to pull this shit on me now I
> turn it back around on them. What, suddenly you
> don't want to pay $xx for yy work you had me do on
> your Porsche? You're what, a realtor? Great, I
> need a house but if I buy one I can afford to go
> racing so you should give me one. Or, you're a
> computer programmer? Great, write me some
> software for my business. Here's $50. You see
> where I'm going with this.
>
> And "holier than thou attitude"? Wow, you really
> know nothing about me, do you? Lol!
>
>

I see your point Dave and apologize for blowing up. I reread what I wrote and it didnt come out as I originally intended. I appreciate your point of view and hope I didn't come off like too much of an ass.

And I wasn't a realtor, I was a statistician/marketing/client services guy for a commercial real estate brokerage team. (that's a big WAS haha)

Eli

This thread reminds me a little bit about the rationale (or lack there of) I experienced when I was 19.

I had a 1971 Mazda R100 with a street ported 12A, AND stock brakes ! It was great in a straight line, was faster than 5.7L Irocs, and a hell of a lot of fun to drive.

But as with anything... I wanted MORE POWER. I went to my local rotary shop, who had their own GT2 road race car. I wanted either a peripheral or bridgeport with a 51 IDA.

The Japanesse owner (Takashi) told me that he wouldn't do any performance work on the car other than suspension until I upgraded the brakes on all 4 corners.

I asked him why ?

He said, "what good is a fast car if you're dead?"

At the time, I thought "what an ass" !

Good life lesson though.

If I was building a rally car I would find the best cage builder I could and have him do my seat mounts and belt mounting points as well.

My Colt... has taken a few tumbles... give me solace in knowing it's built well.

If I could just get off my ass and get it back on the road one of these seasons...

I've learned that value is a much bigger piece of the negotiation than price alone.

I had VSC build the cage on the Ford - I believe that is where anyone building a car should spend priority money. BTW the 1st price quote was not the price I paid.

So this is not a discussion on the value of one cage builder or another - and Davie should certainly stick to his guns as he's providing a significant value to the customer.

Let me give you another example - in selling my house - I told the broker what my bottom line price was - and that I was firm. I was dealing with a buyer that is Pakistani - this tells me that they always think they're at a Bazaar. He came back with a low ball price. I restated my position. The realtor came down on her comission. I restated my position. This repeated until several times. I then offered what I considered a token concession, but put in an as-is clause to help the buyer feel like he'd won something. The buyer accepted.

If you know the value of your product - stick to your guns - you might have to use a small discount just to make the deal happen based on your audience - but you should never have to take so much out of your margin that you feel like you got hosed. At that point its a bad deal for both parties.