Mk 2 Golf as a rally car

Howdy folks! Just got back from the Thunderbird TSD rally and I was again amazed how good my Golf was. The last two rallies have been snow, ice and frozen gravel. The car has performed very well. I was the only two wheel drive car to finish the Totem Rally.

For those of you who don't know let me tell you a bit about TSDs. The speeds are lower than a stage rally unless you are running late. The roads tend to be not as rough as in a stage event. I find that because I am trying to hold a set speed (cast), I don't do as much braking before a corner. I dab the brake to rotate the car and then get on the throttle to power out of the corner.

I am running a 1991 VW GTI 8 valve. It has a worn out 1.8l bottom end with a nice, ported solid lifter head on it. I have a Shrick 272 cam set at 0 degrees. The intake is a cone filter and the exhaust has a stock cat into a Flowmaster muffler. Engine management is Digifant with the stock chip. The transmition is an AUG code 020 5 speed with a short shift kit. Suspension is Bilstein PSS coil overs. The ride height is about 1.5 lower than stock. I just fitted a set of spherical bearing strut tops that JVL and I made. I have three stress bars on the car. The front anti roll bar has been removed. Wheels are 14X6 45et. Tires are 175/65R14 Hankook 201.

JVL says that this is not a "real rally car" and I would agree. On the drive up to Thunderbird, I did however notice that with John on his taller snow tires the cars were closely matched. The "proper rally car" was turning about 300rpm faster and I suspect that it pulled up the Coquihalla pass a bit harder.

As I see it, the problems that prevent the car from being "a proper rally car" are: low traction, low torque, low ride height and a very low first gear. Hold on John! Let me show you how easy it is to address these problems.

Low traction. The grip is good as long as the wheels are touching the ground! A Peloquin 80% shim kit would be a big help. A Gripper or Kaaz dif would be amazing. I am ruling out a welded diff only because it is a hassle to park.

Low torque. Better compression and tuning would help, but a 2 liter ABA code block is the real solution.

Low ride height. I have a good skid plate and under body plastic. On reasonable roads the car is fine. Deep snow and baby heads are a problem. JVL suspenders are the easy solution.

Now we get to John's favorite problem, gearing. I suggest that the ratios are not as big of a problem as people say. I just compared the VWMS rally box, my AUG box, a 9A box and a hybrid 020 box that could be assembled from the junk yard. They are not that different. The very low 3.455 fist gear is unusable. The 9A box mitigates this by providing a 2.118 second gear. I plotted the rpm drops for all four gear boxes. Excluding first gear the AUG is very similar to the VWMS.

The other half of the gearing problem lies with the ring and pinion. VWMS has ratios from 4.20 all the way to 5.07. The diesel golfs provide us with 4.20 and 4.25. The AUG box is 3.667.

I say that the low cost answer to the gearing problem is an AUG box with a diesel r&p driven as a four speed. The other option is a 9A box with the diesel r&p combined with an engine that has a wider power band.

What do you think?

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

I asked one of my friends after finishing this years Sno Drift and having been the fastest 2wd car there (26+ min ahead of kyle sarasin at the end, and like 9 min lead in g2 each day) how the new transmission was. The transmission has 2Y gears, with a 4.46 final drive, and a welded diff.

His response was, "Apparently I've never driven a rally car before. Its awesome!"

I have something similar in my car. 4.46 in a 2Y with a quaife. So not as consistent grip, but the gears are all the same. And the gears are awesome.

Peloquin shim kit is worthless in a rally. I have one in my scirocco. Its cool when you're 17 because then you can do 2 wheel burnouts, but thats pretty much it.

If it was me I'd go welded with a 4.46. But if you cant source a 4.46 that fits in your budget, get a 4.25. Its as good as you can do without blowing loads of cash. You also gotta get an 8v 4th gear set (preferably the 1.13 ratio) and the associated circlips that go with it. 16v 4th gears have different splines on the pinion shaft, and the 4.25 and 4.46 pinion shafts are splined for 8v gears. You also need the 8v 5th gear circlip for the pinion shaft, its also different than the 16v clip. There are a few other odds and ends you gotta get, bearings, shims, etc, to install a different r&p. Search this site for vw ring and pinion info, I posted it all up when I did the first one.

Though, after building those two boxes I'm now switching to volvos which you can get ring and pinions from 3.01-5.38 or something all day long for $160. Dana 30 goodness. More fuck for your buck.

And from craigs list ads people have been posting up from the pnw it seems people nearly give away perfectly good 240's all the time. So if I was you I'd sell my golf to some pimply teen for too much money, buy a cheap volvo and have some good fun.

edit:
the 4.25 rp only comes in the 92 eco diesel jetta transmission code avx. Good luck finding one.
You can get them new here: http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/genuine-part-ringpinion_39384.html
for a mere $480. Thats a bit more than John could get the 4.46's for, although he has to get the 5 at a time and the exchange rate may have went up or down since then.
OEM Part Number is 020 409 143 AG



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2009 07:04PM by Carl S.

The 2Y has the same 2.118 second gear as the 9A.

The other diesel r&p is 3.941. I will have to run the numbers on that one.

4.46 is really low. What rpm and mph are you seeing? I assume that you are on 175/65R14 tires. Is your car 8V or 16V? Where does your motor make power?

My rule of thumb is that 100 mph is good for a rally car in the PNW with Pomeroy being the exception.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

I think 7200 rpm in 5th was like 118 with the 4.46. Nearly saw that at LSPR 07 a couple times. 60 cm tires I believe. Motor is a stock 2l 16v in my car. My friend's is a bolt on'd 2l 8v. Neither are powerhouses.

3.9 barely seems worth the effort.

I'd listen to Carl on this one.

If I had a bigger garage and rallying was my primary goal, I'd have a 240 in the garage for sure.

I think it's pretty safe to say that it's the cheapest, proven quite competitive and already figured out 2WD platform in North America.

If they didn't have the sex appeal of a musty nicotine stained wall, or had hoards of emo kids fantasizing about them, they would be more expensive.

Edit: There's nothing new said here.. I know.

Cheers,

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2009 10:39PM by hudson.

I am considering building a mk3 unless i come across a good deal on a mk2. I want something newer/nicer and the mk3s seem to be cheaper and not riced out or with a shit load of cancer. I do have a 4.25 which i got from John for a very reasonable price but i dont think it did much with my 1.8lt. It seemed a little better this weekend with the 2.0lt i put in but I would prefer a 4.47 or something.

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

mk3's arent as bad as everyone thinks. My friend that built one got it down to 2300lbs just with a little cutting and lexan. Thats less than my mk2.

Check out the O2A transmissions; gassers can be found with 4.25 final drives stock (we have luck finding them in the early Mk.4 2.0 Jettas). We've also found they are so much faster to rebuild than the O2O's and take a beating a little better.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=642917 << lists of ratios

Dexter,

An O2A will bolt up to the 1.8l and 2.0 blocks correct? Do you know off hand what the input shaft diameter is? 24mm?

Everyone,

Brokevw.com is an excellent resource for VW transmition information. His tests of differential shim kit torque was interesting. He measures a Peloquin 80% kit at 135 to 140 lb/ft. It's not very high, but considering the cost and ease of installation it's not bad.

To those of you who suggest a Volvo off hand..... I don't dispute the quality or effectiveness of that formula. The point of my post is that the VW is better than people make it out to be. Relatively speaking, the cars problems are cheap and easy to overcome. For those of us who prefer front wheel drive, the golf is still the premier car in North America. The Civic and Focus are not there yet.

Robert.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dexter,
>
> An O2A will bolt up to the 1.8l and 2.0 blocks
> correct? Do you know off hand what the input
> shaft diameter is? 24mm?
>

The 4 cylinder 02A's will. Found in the Corrado G60 and Passat 16v

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-Jason

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He
> measures a Peloquin 80% kit at 135 to 140 lb/ft.
> It's not very high, but considering the cost and
> ease of installation it's not bad.

If you're putting in a new R&P, welding the diff is free and provides way better traction.
I've experienced the peloquin 80%, a quaife, a gripper, and a welded diff all in fwd vws. I'd go welded.

I dont have my transmission software on this computer, but I'll have to crunch the numbers on the 02A with a 4.25 to see if its any better. Depending on the 1-5 ratios it may not be.

And I think you just need the bellhousing from a 4 cyl 02A to bolt it up to a 4 cyl. But dont quote me on that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2009 06:54PM by Carl S.

Carl,

No shit? You like the diff welded over a Gripper clutch type LSD?

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carl,
>
> No shit? You like the diff welded over a Gripper
> clutch type LSD?


Robert, give me a ring and I will convince you. Welded the diff in my turbo Omni after blowing up the $1000 LSD after 5 events and never went back.

Dave,

Give me your number again.

Robert.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carl,
>
> No shit? You like the diff welded over a Gripper
> clutch type LSD?


For the money spent its hands down the best.