strut dampers

I am wondering what the fitiment requirements are for racing struts. The search pics show non side load bearing dampers. Is there some "unique to racing" mounting technique? How can I get external dimensions for racing dampers with mounting requirements? Thanks in advance

---

www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck

Don't you talk to John?

---

Gone fishing

ftwelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am wondering what the fitiment requirements are
> for racing struts. The search pics show non side
> load bearing dampers. Is there some "unique to
> racing" mounting technique? How can I get external
> dimensions for racing dampers with mounting
> requirements? Thanks in advance



As always, say more.
Say what you're working on, what you're thinking, and why.

Who, what, where, when , how? And why?

See, words are needed, dialog is needed to be certain we're making reference to the same real world things, or processes, or forces.
And I gotta say, even though I make suspenders for cars and did for bikes, I really don't know "wassamatta wich whatever".
So more words, more piccies, phoptos, arrows etc.

(By the way, when some of the boys joke about 'you better have your cell-phone charged" when they say call me, it's because these kids think a few words of text clearly states their problems, and that somebody ought to be able figure out from their few words the answer to why they'ze ain't dominating, doooood.
So first, I RARELY assume I understand what somebody else ismeaning with their words until we speak and sense out each other and what or how we use words or they use drawings or photos to cut past the words)







>
> www.frankthewelder.com
> www.sinisterbikes.com
> learning the ropes by wrapping them around my
> neck

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Thanks for the reply. I was waiting to approach you (JVL) with some education already but here goes.. right now I am building a hill climb car. A big part of my process is making drawings of the parts I am using. I am looking to the future and other projects and like to keep at least some of the time invested in current stuff.

I fugure (fucked figuring) that when shopping for racing dampers for struts, the information needed won't involve questions like "is that the two door or hatchback". I fugure stuff like intended spring rates, OA length, stroke, etc. will be the hot topics. I don't even know how these friggin things mount. I have only taken apart one MC strut front end and seen a few random images.

I then fugured that quality dampers are going to be available in fewer external shapes (to those not purchasing dampers built completely custom) than OE parts and likely have some type of mounting deemed "best" (at the bottom specifically).

I guess that the damper body is the structural component like a motorcycle fork, not like the VW with a outer tube with crap welded on it.

I fugure the bottom of the damper body (slider if you will) has a thick area that may or may not have some bolt pattern for attaching some adaptor to facilitate mounting.

I then fugure that rally stuff is "weeded" out a bit better than most genres of racing (I have been to enough road races to know that is an empty box) and I should start engineering NOW with rally technology.

My steering knuckles have bolt holes 55mm on center if that has any relevence.

thanks in advance

---

www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck

ftwelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the reply. I was waiting to approach
> you (JVL) with some education already but here
> goes.. right now I am building a hill climb car. A
> big part of my process is making drawings of the
> parts I am using. I am looking to the future and
> other projects and like to keep at least some of
> the time invested in current stuff.
>
> I fugure (fucked figuring)


Uh...............
> My steering knuckles have bolt holes 55mm on
> center if that has any relevence.
>
> thanks in advance
Er...........

Look you know the normal way you buy aftermarket suspension is like this following dialog: (substituting of course "rally" suspension for cheese"

Brriiiiiing, briniiiiiiiiiiiing"
(a customer walks in the door)

Customer: Good Morning.

Owner: Good morning, Sir. Welcome to the National Cheese Emporium!

Customer: Ah, thank you, my good man.

Owner: What can I do for you, Sir?

Customer: Well, I was, uh, sitting in the public library on Thurmon Street just now, skimming through Rogue Herrys by Hugh Walpole, and I suddenly came over all peckish.

Owner: Peckish, sir?

Customer: Esuriant.

Owner: Eh?

Customer: 'Ee, ah wor 'ungry-loike!

Owner: Ah, hungry!

Customer: In a nutshell. And I thought to myself, "a little fermented curd will do the trick," so, I curtailed my Walpoling activites, sallied forth, and infiltrated your place of purveyance to negotiate the vending of some cheesy comestibles!

Owner: Come again?

Customer: I want to buy some cheese.

Owner: Oh, I thought you were complaining about the bazouki player!

Customer: Oh, heaven forbid: I am one who delights in all manifestations of the Terpsichorean muse!

Owner: Sorry?

Customer: 'Ooo, Ah lahk a nice tuune, 'yer forced too!

Owner: So he can go on playing, can he?

Customer: Most certainly! Now then, some cheese please, my good man.

Owner: (lustily) Certainly, sir. What would you like?

Customer: Well, eh, how about a little red Leicester.

Owner: I'm, a-fraid we're fresh out of red Leicester, sir.

Customer: Oh, never mind, how are you on Tilsit?

Owner: I'm afraid we never have that at the end of the week, sir, we get it fresh on Monday.

Customer: Tish tish. No matter. Well, stout yeoman, four ounces of Caerphilly, if you please.

Owner: Ah! It's beeeen on order, sir, for two weeks. Was expecting it this morning.

Customer: 'T's Not my lucky day, is it? Aah, Bel Paese?

Owner: Sorry, sir.

Customer: Red Windsor?

Owner: Normally, sir, yes. Today the van broke down.

Customer: Ah. Stilton?

Owner: Sorry.

Customer: Ementhal? Gruyere?

Owner: No.

Customer: Any Norweigan Jarlsburg, per chance.

Owner: No.

Customer: Lipta?

Owner: No.

Customer: Lancashire?

Owner: No.

Customer: White Stilton?

Owner: No.

Customer: Danish Brew?

Owner: No.

Customer: Double Goucester?

Owner: (pause) No.

Customer: Cheshire?

Owner: No.

Customer: Dorset Bluveny?

Owner: No.

Customer: Brie, Roquefort, Pol le Veq, Port Salut, Savoy Aire, Saint Paulin, Carrier de lest, Bres Bleu, Bruson?

Owner: No.

Customer: Camenbert, perhaps?

Owner: Ah! We have Camenbert, yessir.

Customer: (suprised) You do! Excellent.

Owner: Yessir. It's..ah,.....it's a bit runny...

Customer: Oh, I like it runny.

Owner: Well,.. It's very runny, actually, sir.

Customer: No matter. Fetch hither the fromage de la Belle France! Mmmwah!

Owner: I...think it's a bit runnier than you'll like it, sir.

Customer: I don't care how fucking runny it is. Hand it over with all speed.

Owner: Oooooooooohhh........! (pause)

Customer: What now?

Owner: The cat's eaten it.

Customer: (pause) Has he.

Owner: She, sir.

Customer: (pause) Gouda?

Owner: No.

Customer: Edam?

Owner: No.

Customer: Case Ness?

Owner: No.

Customer: Smoked Austrian?

Owner: No.

Customer: Japanese Sage Darby?

Owner: No, sir.

Customer: You...do *have* some cheese, don't you?

Owner: (brightly) Of course, sir. It's a cheese shop, sir. We've got--

Customer: No no... don't tell me. I'm keen to guess.

Owner: Fair enough.

Customer: Uuuuuh, Wensleydale.

Owner: Yes?

Customer: Ah, well, I'll have some of that!

Owner: Oh! I thought you were talking to me, sir. Mister Wensleydale, that's my name.

Customer: (pause) Greek Feta?

Owner: Uh, not as such.

Customer: Uuh, Gorgonzola?

Owner: No.

Customer: Parmesan,

Owner: No.

Customer: Mozarella,

Owner: No.

Customer: Paper Cramer,

Owner: No.

Customer: Danish Bimbo,

Owner: No.

Customer: Czech sheep's milk,

Owner: No.

Customer: Venezuelan Beaver Cheese?

Owner: Not *today*, sir, no.

Customer: (pause) Aah, how about Cheddar?

Owner: Well, we don't get much call for it around here, sir.

Customer: Not much ca-- it's the single most popular cheese in the world!

Owner: Not 'round here, sir.

Customer: (slight pause) and what IS the most popular cheese 'round hyah?

Owner: 'Illchester, sir.

Customer: IS it.

Owner: Oh, yes, it's staggeringly popular in this manor, squire.

Customer: Is it.

Owner: It's our number one best seller, sir!

Customer: I see. Uuh...'Illchester, eh?

Owner: Right, sir.

Customer: All right. Okay. 'Have you got any?' he asked, expecting the answer 'no'.

Owner: I'll have a look, sir........nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno.

Customer: It's not much of a cheese shop, is it?

Owner: Finest in the district!

Customer: (annoyed) Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please.

Owner: Well, it's so clean, sir!

Customer: It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese....

Owner: (brightly) You haven't asked me about Limburger, sir.

Customer: Would it be worth it?

Owner: Could be....

Customer: Have you --SHUT THAT BLOODY BAZOUKI OFF!

Owner: Told you sir....

Customer: (slowly) Have you got any Limburger?

Owner: No.

Customer: Figures.Predictable, really I suppose. It was an act of purest optimism to have posed the question in the first place. Tell me:

Owner: Yessir?

Customer: (deliberately) Have you in fact got any cheese here at all.

Owner: Yes, sir.

Customer: Really?

(pause)

Owner: No. Not really, sir.

Customer: You haven't.

Owner: Nosir. Not a scrap. I was deliberately wasting your time, sir.

Customer: Well I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to shoot you.

Owner: Right-Oh, sir.

(The customer takes out a gun and shoots the owner)

Customer: What a *senseless* waste of human life.


Or you call someplace and you tell them you are going hillclimb and eventually rally and they say "Well we do roadrace but we have the trickest shit for you, it's soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo trick......what model car you have?"

Or "We have these super high quality gravel suspension that is developed by those gravel rally experts in Malaysia, they cost 840 bucks, but you'd want these things over here which cost 1800 cause they're the top of the line..."
And you open the box and see they are conventional skinny shaft struts and they have maybe 165mm travel. And you have absolutely no idea what the valving is on compression and return, possibly no idea of the spring rate, if the springs actuall have the travel to not coil bind before the puny travel is used up or anything..

OR, you pay $4000+ and when something happens you're told it was "an installation fault. XMS has NEVER had a failure in use EVER!!"

Even if you caqll me for suspenders, and i have some short inserts that would be good for smooth surfaces, you don't need to concern yourself about mounting.
We can discuss options though for top mount front or bottom and top mounts on the rear if its a VW thing with the shittier than whale-shit top mount bearings which shatter if you grimace at them.


Is this helping?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Frank,

No offense but I have no idea what you are trying to say. Are you trying to buy suspension before you decide on a car? If not, what type of car?

John,

I pissed myself reading your post. You have lost your mind. You will no find it again.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

I think I laughed so hard I shook the nails out our appt.

I want to purchase high quality tunable dampers for my climber. I am shopping for some E36 cars also. I noticed on the 318 out back it has struts. guessing the E36 chassis does too. may be not?

my car won't pass rally tech. It will never be a legal rally car It's all TIG welded 4130. I may set it up for dirt and try to learn FWD driving. The suspension is still M-strut but it has been completely reconfigured and the front track is about 300mm wider than stock. the upper strut mounts will be mobile and have a huge range of adjustment.

the steering knuckles are from a VW passat VR6 (B3)

things I am assuming (I know, don't assume shit)

good dampers are good dampers. If I buy a good set and shop smart (somewhat qusetionable attempt at this point) I may be able to have them reconfigured for the E36. If that can be done, I want to build the climber to fit the good dampers. If the car be made to work I may build another FWD VW for rally, I am going to pick up a stock E36, cage it and just see how it goes in the mean time.

I can't see myself ordering "stage 3 extreme racing shocks" from online universal racing emporium.

to answer you rallymech, yes.

what is the OA length of a quality 8" and 9" stroke damper, what does the bottom and top look like and where can I find the dimensions. if the VW bearing is bad, show me what works.

---

www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck

Frank,

I have read this thread three times and I am still not sure what your car is. What is the make, model and year of your hill climb car. I think it is an E36 but you are not specific.

There are several good suspension options for the E36. I like Bilstein and Koni. I would stay away from the extreme road racing stuff. It will be too stiff and will not have enough travel. On the other hand a full gravel spec rally set up may be a bit soft for hill climb.

I am running a basic Bilsein PSS non adjustable coil over kit on my Golf. It would be perfect for hill climb. It is not bad on smooth gravel. The VWs have a terrible top bearing on the front struts. I adapted some of John's spherical bearing parts to fit my car. We have had some teething problems but the next set will be quite cost effective.

MORE INFO PLEASE!

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Ah, the cheese shop. good stuff.

I like the bookstore one too. Those guys really had it together back in the day.

NI!!


--sarge

---

---** To be in compliance with the Anarchy **---
Jorden R. Kleier
Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
1990 Mazdog Protege 4WD
1973

VW bearings arnt as bad as everyone says.
Upgrade to the vr6 top mounts, replace the bearings at your leisure for $3 a piece. I replaced the bearings once in 11 rallies.
Using the subaru top mounts isnt bad either, but vr6 stuff is cheaper to maintain I think.

the car is a rabbit with Passat VR6 steering knuckles and axles and A arms something like 4" longer than stock.

John, yes you have been helpful. I still worry about mounting, dimensions and variables..

John, are you reworking Bilsteins, making custom dampers?

---

www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2009 04:22AM by ftwelder.

try finding the early style strut mounts. like these http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4230725

I've been running these for a long long time and they do not suffer from the regular styles issues of ripping or extending. I was initially recommended them by the Bunny Boys who used them in their old rally rabbit.

Frank I'm going to be selling my old mk1 hillclimb suspension setup really soon. They aren't new fangled anythings but some good old "race" valved bilsteins up front and some KYB's in the rear coupled with some unknown springs, the whole setup was taken off an old GT road race rabbit. I added a Shine Racing large rear sway to help with the balance of the car on the hills. I had great luck with it as it was nicely balanced on the hills and provided a nice mixture of stiffness without being too stiff where the bumps will toss you off the road like the 800lbs/in setup I had before. Let me know if you'd be interested... i'm sure we can work something out ;-) I'm not even opposed to a "test drive" on your car.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2009 08:21AM by DexterVW.

we can do something for sure. I will be running less weight per wheel but higher leverage ratio, it will be great to get some baseline.

does anyone measure sag on their suspension?

---

www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck

ftwelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the car is a rabbit with Passat VR6 steering
> knuckles and axles and A arms something like 4"
> longer than stock.
>
> John, yes you have been helpful. I still worry
> about mounting, dimensions and variables..
>
> John, are you reworking Bilsteins, making custom
> dampers?
I make the threaded tubes (M52 x 2 thread, which is the same as Bilstein uses on their shocks) (in thick wall 4130 CrMo) with the bronze bushings, the upper and lower spring seats and lock rings and then I make the parts to mount up the struts into whatever the final application is.
In the case of some cars like Xratties and old school Subies (like RX or Leone) or MkIV Golf they get a deal to plug into the knuckles and get clamped, and in the case of VWs and Sub-a-rat, and Hondas and Nissan and Toyota or Audis, I make the ears or 'flags' to bolt thru the front knuckle.
I've sometimes excised the existing ears off struts but now i usually make 3/16" plates so we can make them a bit longer for tire to spring clearance issues, and I make them so the ears have a bend and begin to wrap around the tube a bit rather than just sticking them on at a straight 90 from the body. Much stronger to begin to wrap even if its only for 1/2" or so.

As for the inserts, I order those to application after consulting back and forth with the customer so we can tailor the inserts to whatever travel and weight for the specific car, and I specify the length of travel and the valving.

The new inserts have a big fat 22 x 110 unfinished pin at the top which I make the top mounts of the inserts to basically 2 configurations: Subaru (which is more or less the same for most Japanese cars--the OEM stuff is usually KYB and KYB supplies the top mounts to everybody) 15mm ID bearing, or Ford GpA style which is a fat 20mm pin which goes into a sperical bearing top mount with a 22mm or 7/8" ID bearing.

Since there IS substantial side loads on a strut and its resolved in two places (at the junction of the upper and lower strut parts, hence the 2 big long 1.5" bushes separated by a 1.5" gap so the tube is supported over essentially 4.5" and LOTS of square inches. And at the top mount) I like the big FAT 20mm or 22mm or 7/8" top pin.

Lesson time (this is where by looking at the details of what serious cars use at the highest level--eg the WRC, we can learn something and then think if there's any way we can apply the same or similar ideas to our own cars if it doesnt cost too much but a bit of effort)
Looking at all OEM street car top mounts I see shitty little round pieces of beercan and maybe a few ball bearings way smaller than BBs in several Euro cars I've done: Xratty, VW, Audi. And then some spindly skinny 12 or maybe 14mm pin.

On nearly all the Japonaise cars I've seen a stouter 15mm shank for a rear ballbearing, and then a 12mm stud. But it the height of the bearing, around 15mm high or wide, and the size of the balls that makes that set up so much superior to the German shit.

Didya get that? JVL saying something on a fucking Sub-a-rat is GOOD.

That alone ought to be reason to fucking listen up!


OK on the two real Group A ex WRC cars I've had stuff in hand, we see Ford goes to the 20mm pin with the spacers out to 22mm for the bearing, and on the ex-Prodrive WRC 50mm stuff I supplied all those 48 units we see they used a fat 19mm pin.

Now seems to me that if there's all this info here it seems we can actuall CHOOSE to make stuff better since we now KNOW that there is something better/stronger.

All you boys can say "I never had any problems" and you know what?
Whooopie!!!
Try driving faster and or ramming into shit harder and THEN YOU WILL.

I'll counter with just 2 incidents I know of:
Baie d'Chaleur 1997 I'm parked next to Chris Havas who was leading Gp2--I was having a turd like motor, bad coil, no power and starting to have a gearbox problem which led to DNF--- and first night he's majorly fucked cause his fucking supposed "soultion" or VR6 bearings were dead on both sides.
And they had been new. He was fucked.
Doubly fucked because of the stupid mounting method used on the VW/Audi and for that matter Xratties.

Incident no2 was just a coupla weeks ago Roberto Gobrechto was looking to improve the top mount, so we go to his place and pull a strut with a known 640 miles of SNOW CANAJIAN TSD rally.
Known mileage. SNOW.
Bearing was shattered.

They are junk. dreck, schlim, schrot, scheisse. Verstäts?

Why argue when somebody has come up with a cheap (I paid $5 for some fine Subaru top mounts at a wrecking yard--use you eyes, they were FINE) solution to what has been more than amply proven to be a constant problem?

This is particularly puzzling why many of you boys say what you say when you know that Frank here is at the construction stage and can incorporate the improvement at essentially near zero effort at this time and be done with it forever.

I seriously would have thought the universal response from all VW guys would have been "Wow a simple solution for this scary problem I know is just waiting to rear its head---like when I have driven 600 miles and coughed up a huge entry fee, naturally, man that's great! And so easy!!! Wow"

Instead I read denial "I haven't had any problems" (yet!!)

What the fuck to you think I'm yapping about this shit for?
(Since its clear that many don't understand why this will be answered)
To PREVENT YOU from having this specific problem that SO MANY OTHERS HAVE HAD.

Fuckin hell.

Frank, since you have good fab facilities, I can supply the strut tubes without ears and you can make your own so to tailor the setup to what you need.
I even have some nice second hand GpA Ford 41mm inserts which are short Tarmac length and which could be ideal for a hillclimb car.

Naturally I suggest getting stuff you can keep for a long time since I go by the inflexible law "It is the stingy man who pays the most".

Charge that cellphone or (gasp) use a landline and give a call.


>
>
>
>
> www.frankthewelder.com
> www.sinisterbikes.com
> learning the ropes by wrapping them around my
> neck
>
>
>
> Edited 2 times. Last edit at Feb 18, 2009 by
> ftwelder.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

ftwelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> we can do something for sure. I will be running
> less weight per wheel but higher leverage ratio,
> it will be great to get some baseline.
>

you are moving the lower mounting point out by ~6" on each side....What are you doing at the top?

How do you plan to deal with Camber?
Castor?
Bump steer?
etc?


If anyone is interested in something for an E46 BMW, I have a friend with a NEW never installed setup from Ohlins that they were working on for rough tarmac and gravel use.... $2500 (includes bushes, spring hardware for coils and for conical springs....plus lots of other needed hardware).

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf