strut dampers

Frank,

If you ever think that you will take the car onto the dirt I would use John's struts. I have seen them inside and out. They really are nice.

I was also wondering about why you are using the wide track parts on the front. The problems that you are causing are worse that what you are trying to make better!

Robert.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

the lower mounting point is not quite that far out. The upper strut mount stays pretty close to the stock A1 position. Not sure on the height on the strut mount. I will need to know the OA length first.

The Passat steering knuckle positions everything pretty well for my current set-up. for "rally like" ride height the arms on the knuckles would have ot be moved.

There is a bit of an issue with camber. The gooseneck on the knuckle should be moved a bit or changed,.It may be easier to alter the strut tube (or whatever holds the damper to the car), the gooseneck bolt spacing is like a corrado, a bit wider than A1.

the stock A1 knuckle positions the bottom of the strut pretty much on top of the CV joint. The B3 part canalevers the stut, inboard over the narrow end of the boot. if you picture a rabbit from the front, the B3 puts the wheel bearings and lower ball joint way outboard and a bit higher "in space" while leaving the strut in the same place and the tie rod at the same height but a bit longer.

I find that tilting the stut inbooard lowers the roll center down and makes the rate of progression on the spring slightly higher. The arm angles are pretty normal so no weird scrub stuff is going on.
the upper strut mounts will be bosses welded in the frame tubes with mounting plates that can be changed to make minor adjustments I would bet that B3 Passat strut towers are nearly the same dimension apart as a rabbit

since the damper is cantalevered and I am going to be running on pretty rough surfaces I want to consider some rally spec dampers. I will post some images of my drawings with some comparitive points

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www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck

John, thanks a ton for your time, that is what I need.
Rallymech, a year ago when I started this car project I read, consulted considered and pondered quite a bit. I was told to watch for these issues an how I am trying to deal with them.

power- installed 16V motor
tranny- went by someones opinion and got some transaxle (this will always be an issue I assume) it's an 020 with close ratios. won't know till I drive it to see if the ratios work. I am not running the same motor you would typically find. High compression, low boost

handling, I was told I would need front rates approaching 1000 lbs/inch and read reports of giant sway bars either front or rear with huge wheel offsets. sometimes switching back and forth for flat or tilted surfaces. I basically used Passat suspension geometry and parts + 50mm width.



reliability- CV's blow, hubs snap off, wheel bearings shat and huge spacers cause huge torque steer. People go fast regardless and I am not the smartest guy in the world but it sounds like no suspension and a lot of band-aids. My project uses current VW steering and suspension geometry, places the center of the steering arc exactly in the middle of an 11" wide tire at contact. The roll center is 2" from the ground, it uses VW's solution for it's more modern vehicles weighing nearly double what the cabby weighs with VR6 power. I know many report very few failures. if you leave the steering box in stock location, take a stock knuckle and move it you only need to add the same length to tie rod as to the arm.

Overall design intent; use smart people to fix complicated problems. (I read everything written by everyone on everything, no kidding) use parts from stronger faster cars if I can but use it as it should be used from an engineering satndpoint. go back to known working foundations, I drew from a variety of good working race cars a typical width/length ratio. figured out how to apply it to the parts I had. Ya, it's a FWD but so what, I will put a modified 091 bus tranny and go RWD if this sucks. I am starting here and going where I go next. I even put the shifter in a easy to find place.

If I am missing something, let me know. I am painting this thing with krylon and no primer.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3411/3292979068_e0cf3ace57.jpg

[ic of suspension geo

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www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2009 08:10AM by ftwelder.

the circle on the strut shaft half-way up is the stock strut mounting point as viewed from the front.

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www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck

You want to drive on rough surfaces with eleven inch wide tires?

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Frank, I am going to say this pretty much flat out:
you have been talking to people who are either total idiots (fair chance) or are delusion walter Mittyesque clowns who are DREAMING that the need whatever.
1000 lb/inch springs? (on a car weighing how much?)
Wrong.
Super wide track?
Wrong.

You're way overthinking what you need to do as a first car build, especially since there are such limited opportunities to go play hill-climb.

You know that some people did go faster on abaverage that the current Rally America poster children in MkI Golves don't you?
And they had just 6-7" wheels.


WHAT THE FUCK!

I always say to boys when they have these totally crazy extreme build ideas "because I can".

Look, make the car work as a gravel rally car and it can still be a fun cone squisher, or track day or hillclimb (ya know we do drive up hills in rally---then we drive down them!)
A well built rally car can do a pretty damn good job of everything ----especially considering the driving skills of ALL of US,
BUT! Some weird ass concoction built from talking to fan-boyz wannabe (who I am aware may actually occasionally do a hillclimb) suited for one type of usage only,

that just doesn't seem very smart allocation of funds.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

there are 6-8 hill climb races within two hours of my house per year so racing isn't going to be an issue. By the time I build a rally car I will have been to several rally races, been to all the shops and purchased seat time and perhaps a used car. I think a lot of the comments regarding my posts have to do with getting another car on the dirt and another name on the roster as quickly as can be. I understand that. that is not my current objective however.

I have a very solid record of reaching goals even if my process seems wrong or wasteful. Perhaps when this car is done, I will bring it to a rally so some experienced drivers can try it out.

Ill be in touch soon.. F

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www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck

that is a computer generated image of a proposed hill-climb suspension set-up. I have not purchased tires yet. some hillclimb surfaces are pretty rough though.

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www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=hillclimb+okemo

for an idea on what the hills look like... that's one of the smoothest

From being an "experienced" hillclimber (haha) I can tell you that 1000lbs/in is way way to stiff.... I tried 800 and had pissed my pants by the top of the hill... the car was way too uncontrollable as the wheels where never really on the ground.

My current setup is lower, much lower, I can't give numbers as I don't know them but I'm guessing 250-400lbs/in. The top vw guys (The Rutans) run a crazy dual spring setup with a 50lbs/in helper and a 300-400lbs/in main, its an interesting setup to drive as it take a lot of the feel out of the suspension, it feels more like flying a car than driving, but damn it works. I was very impressed with it and how sure footed the car felt.

11" tires... why so skinny? ;-)

Since most hillclimb roads are not the smoothest, it seems to me that a compliant (e.g. 250 lb front springs) makes more sense, as it will keep the tires on the ground.

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

Frank,

I am running a very stiff street suspension. My front rates are 300 in/lb with an 80 in/lb helper. I removed the the front anti roll bar. I could used a bit more bar in the rear. My set up would be great for hill climb. Any more stiffness would really hurt traction on my vehicle.

I don't want to sound like a dick because I respect your skills and efforts, but I think that you are over engineering. A good engineer finds the simple elegant solutions. There is no shame or defeat in the simplification of a project. Being an engineer is all about compromise.

Running front wheel drive on a hill climb is always going to be a problem because of the weight transfer off the drive wheels. In the end a Rabbit (did you say cabriolet?) is always going to be at a disadvantage. Do they have FWD classes in hill climbs?

What are the ratios in that 020 that you got? I am thinking about your over all drive ratios when you have to run 13 inch tires with that wide track. Also think about your total wheel rates with small tires and very low section width.

16v with high compression and low boost? Does that mean a stock compression motor with a turbo? If so, why? There are several proven paths to turbo charge a 16v.

Take a step back and rethink. I really like the 325is for mixed use.

Robert.
425-766-6559

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2009 11:01AM by Rallymech.

I did some research when I built the Audi GT last year. Road race Audis were using around 400/500 frt and 600 back . That is a similar but heavier car. I wouldn't think anything over 300-400 lbs would be usable on a Rabbit. Without massive aero downforce you'll never use a 1000 lb spring on a 2000 lb car. Same issue with massive tires, Too big and they steer like crap and never heat up.

You need to keep the tires on the pavement or gravel for grip, weight needs to transfer to aid steering, braking and traction. Smooth is fast, skittish is a lot of work although it is pretty exciting at times.

Shocks need to match spring rates, I'd trust JVL to get you close on the numbers.

I have no intention of running heavy springs. It was simply an example of some extremes that are pretty easy to find.

I design mechanical devices all day long. I have a couple of saturdays drafting this concept up, paid $50.00 for the Passat parts, about $30.00 for poly bushings, $19.00 for a 4130 rod end bearing and $3.00/ft for 4130 tube. The laser work is free and I have three mills set for tube coping and in house tube bending.

when I was 17 I built a radio controlled off-road racer that beat 293 of 300 cars in world championships, at 20 I built a 5-1600 baja bug that won a HDRA class championship. in the 30 years since then, bicycles I have built have won many, many championships, world records etc. I even rode to a 6th at the downhill worlds myself. I have a suspension system in the patent system that is pending. sure it's not the best res in the world but I don't totally suck.


it's true I don't know much about rally or HC. I didn't know anything about those other vehicles when I started either. I weigh stuff, test springs, analize materials and ponder. I get crap regarding engineering decisions regarding "marketability". I don't import popular chinese products and hire the best riders. I build what I want, someone shows up and really wants to ride the bike, I let them and we talk, work, ride and tune. We then win lots of races in the amature and semi-pro levels. I need to do this using my process. I need you guys to measure your parts, share your info and not get offended if I dont use your advice. If I am working for someone, I do what is expected of me. This is something I am doing for myself. I need to know the science.

who knows, I may have something to offer, perhaps something new will be discovered or some contribution will be made? if nothing else, some entertainment for you and fun for me.

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www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2009 05:08AM by ftwelder.

I am interested in the inserts. I am sure you already have a sring rate in mind.

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www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck

Frank watch this video and maybe you'll change your mind about that Volkswagen thing you're building.

BMW on the absolute limit at the Isle of Man:





MK2 Golf at the Isle of Man.




It just doesn't go as good does it?
Other than the obvious disadvantage of being on gravel.
It will never be as good.

Why with all your talent would you build a VW Golf of all things? Of all things...take your pick...You decided on a golf. If you keep going, you'll have spent the same amount of money either way (golf or bmw) within 10% and you'll have a worse car. It's friendly advice mate.

It's OK to change directions suddenly. Theres been plenty of times I wish I did afterwards looking back.

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Michael LeCompte



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2009 10:36PM by pikespeakgtx.