74 Colt -> 2.6L Starion engine and transmission swap

I bought a donor today. :-)

The only Starion for sale in BC and it was a great deal too !!!

It's an intercooled 87 with the stronger 89 transmision. The engine is stock except for a pair of Trilogy injectors.

My plans as far as performance modifications are to get an 88/89 ECU, 16G or a 14G, downpipe, forged pistons, boost controller.

With the exception of the pistons I think I'm going to get the parts and install / troubleshoot while the engine is still in the starion.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2009 05:12PM by Morten2.

Looks like a sweet one.

---

Michael LeCompte

Yeah, looks too nice to use as a parts car -- though a Starion with an LS swap would make a fun street car

---

Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

It's definately a unique car in Vancouver (it's 1 of 2).

I agree it would be a shame to part it out, I'd prefer to sell it as a roller to someone in the US. It's an originally from LA and has never had any rust.

LS1 -> Hmmmmmmmm





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2009 10:01PM by Morten2.

Damn that car looks good.

---

-Jason

Morten,

A good deal for you there! It's a shame to separate out a perfectly good car, and a nice one at that.......but so it is with gearheads.....

I would suggest a modification or 2 to your plans:
- In the light weight Colt, the turbo upgrade is not as important. That should come after the swap to the Colt, and you see how the car handles the power. If you insist on the turbo swap, go right to the Super 16G from TEP.
- Ditto for the boost controller. Besides, if you get tempted to play with the boost, you might damage things. This should be the absolutely LAST thing on the list, after the swap is done and AFTER 3 successful rally finishes. You DON"T need the extra boost in the Colt; this engine in stock trim will be more than a common mortal rally driver can handle for a while, maybe forever.
- Do the ECU swap right away (though you won't see any real changes, just a higher boost level for the fuel cutoff).
- The downpipe could wait 'til the swap to the Colt. When you get the new pipe from TEP, weld the 2 long bolts into the lower flange; it will be a super aid to quick servicability.
- The engine rebuild depends on how good it is now, but it makes sense to do it at swap time.

Other important things:
- Get the braided turbo oil line upgrade right away; the stock hard line WILL crack and spew out all your oil out in the harsh use of rallying.
- Forget the hard pipe upgrade until you get the system in the Colt to see how it fits. You may have to modify it.
- You can omit the intercooler on the Colt but you should try to see if you can get it in. I think the ECU will be happy without it; doesn't seem like it would be. YOu might ask thr TEP guys when you buy some parts about this.
- Try to use the stock radiator from the Starion or get something with the same capacity. The temps switches on the lower edge of the radiator that control the fans on the on the Starion radiators tend to have flakey connections when this old, so examine those connectors carefully for any corrosion. And the fan relays are notorious for failures; just get new ones automatically. Have a dash mounted direct control switch for the fans (to the fan relays) to turn on the fans directly if needed. More Starquests die of overheating due to fan control problems than anything except an overly enthusiastic hand on an aftermarket boost control.
- YOU NEED to improve flow-through cooling for the engine compartment. We propped up the back of our Starion hood with spacers, to get a 1/2" to 3/4" gap at the back of the hood. This is very important for low speed cooling.
- Come up with some sort of heat deflector under the passenger side firewall in the Colt; look at how the Starion does it and copy that. The turbo heat gets the passenger floor reeeealy hot if you do not.
- Get a new clutch and PP assembly at swap time. The ACT unit from JVL does well for us. Rebuild the clutch slave cylinder at that time.
- Take the speedo sensor and wiring from the Starion into the Colt, as the ECU looks for that signal.
- Replace the injector connectors with new ones from TEP. These always get corroded and cause all sorts of problems. THIS IS A NUMBER ONE THING TO DO.
- Check the exhaust manifold for cracks in the webs between the tubes; this is very common. If there are more than 2-3, or if any of them are really wide (like you can see through them, get a new manifold. If not, check the manifold flange to the head on a level table for straightness. If only a few cracks, you can put a warped flange on a large, corase belt sander and get it flat again.
- Get a separate boost gage for accurate readings.
- Check all the connectors in the engine harness around the intake manifold, thermostat housing, and distributor for corrosion; correct anything you find bad or suspect. The sensors almost all feed the ECU.
- I keep the stock knock sensor intact and operational. Our car originally did not have it connected, and we never had any problems, but I consider it a safety thing to help avoid engine damage.
- The stock oil pan is very well baffled. Keep it as intact as possible in the swap.
- Spend the $$ on a new oil pump at rebuild time. If the present pump shows good pressure on the present engine, then OK. It's a good spare or unit for a back-up engine. Don't shim the oil pump to get the pressure up; it's not needed.
- The non-Jet head from TEP is a good deal. But we have run the stock MCA Jet head with no problems. Have the Jet head checks carefully for cracks before re-using it. See the TEP articles on waht to look for.
- Get the upgraded O2 sensor with heater element when you get the new turbo downpipe. You can get this from TEP and get a spare from a regular parts store and change out the connector; it is a common Bosch item.
- Get the balance shaft eliminator kit at engine rebuild; it will makes oil pressures better. The kit from NAPA costs about half of what TEP charges and is the same thing.
- The SS head gasket is good to do, especially with if you go to flat top forged pistons. We have had one head gasket brun through with the stock gaskets but it lasted many rallies. The SS head gasket can be bought for a lot less than TEP charges.
- If you can find some sort of O2 sensor display to show the lean or rich condition in the engine, get one. It is a good monitoring device for engine and injection system health.

If the Starion is running and you get out in it, you are going to ask: Why not just turn the Starion into a rally car? Well, We find it to be good and solid and reliable and fast, easy to maintain, stable and easy to drive fast, but heavy in the twisty stuff. But the independent rear sure is nice. I'll leave you to muse over that one.....

Regards,
Mark B.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2009 11:30AM by starion887.

Put a cage in the Starion. Sell the Colt! Why? Ever try to find a Colt windshield, or front fender, or door...?

---

George Beckerman
Maud, IL 62863

Gravelgeezer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Ever try to find a Colt windshield, or front
> fender, or door...?

Yup, I had a '74 Colt and tried for almost a year to get a decent hood (east coast). It was cheaper to sell the car at a loss.

---

Opel is a 4-letter word...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10498579@N07/sets/

WOW !!!

Mark thank you very much for all the information, your effort is greatly appreciated.

It's a 2 owner car (before me) and the guy I bought it from told me that the orignial owner had told him that the engine had never been rebuilt and the turbo is original. The engine has 192K miles on it.

It spools to 7 psi (looking a the fac. dash gauge). I'm not sure if that's a factory setting or if that's because it's inefficient ?

The reason why I had wanted to do some of the mods while the engine is still in the car is to learn on something running before I take it apart. I've never even held a turbo in my hand. *hangs head in shame*

At 192K the turbo probably is due for replacement and it seems logical to go right to the super 16G right away. I don't know much about the dynamics of a turbo but is it logical that if it makes too much power that I can simply run less boost when I'm on gravel and turn it back to 15 or so when I'm on pavement ? Reducing the boost, will there be detrament to spool up.

I'm in contact with a guy that has a 74 Colt with a 2.6L Turbo in that he bought built. The builder had used a rad from a Fiero (not sure why) and opted to not use an intercooler. I'm going to see if it's doable to use the intercooler. I've read in some forums that sometimes a top mount RX7 turbo II intercooler is used on the 2.6L. Thats what my Speed3 has, I understand that the ambient temp is not ideal because of location.

Can an intercooler be put in front of the rad or does this restrict cooling of the engine too much ?

A potential issue that I've noticed driving the starion :

In 1st it pulls right to the redline without hesitation but in subsequent gears it hesitates (similar feeling to a clogged fuel filter) and this increases with road speed.

The boost contorller you mention, do you recommend a cabin mounted one or is an underdash manual controller sufficient ?

For the downpipe do you run a 3 wire for the O2 sensor or a single wire ?

I'll take some pics of the engine compartment of the Colt and post them later today. It's had some "structural" improvements that may limit intercooler location.

I'm going to sell my old carbs... they're a set of 48mm Weber IDF's on a custom built JVAB manifold for the 4G54B. The carbs have 1500 miles on them since a complete rebuild. What are they worth ? I'm going to post trhem on ebay and on the Mighty Max forums. As well a beefy custom made header, complete with "dogbone". Not sure on the value of this stuff ?

A wise man once told me : "Don't let anybody talk you out of the Colt"

My 74' is Rust free was built into SCCA rally in 1987 and is still around today.

That's the next thing I'm going to buy -> a Colt parts car. (I have a hood, 2 front fenders, and a few other things laying around)

I can only see myself doing 1 or 2 rally's per year, and that's enough for me.

The rest of the time... It'll just be a cool car to own !

Look at my signature and maybe you can see why I said, "Sell the Colt." What I didn't add was, "...to me!" HA!

---

George Beckerman
Maud, IL 62863

Morten2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A wise man once told me : "Don't let anybody talk
> you out of the Colt"
>
> My 74' is Rust free was built into SCCA rally in
> 1987 and is still around today.
>

1988, actually, was when it did it's first rally.

Morten, I can't believe you're going to take such a huge step backwards with the drivetrain. If you can't figure out the sweet 2.4l twin carb setup then I don't know why you think it'll be better with the turbo. I predict it will never run again. Please, prove me wrong! But a 2.6 turbo is all wrong for that car.

I've been looking for a repair manual for an 87 Starion.

Does anyone know of a source ?

I'm trying to familiarize myself with everything under the hood.

Morten,

In the last thread you created, someone gave link to an electronic copy of a TM. Have you chekced eBay and Amazon?

If the present turbo only going to 7 psi, it is shot, 'specialy with that many miles. The car is dogging in the gears above 1st becasue the turbo is shot. I mean, it is gone. Don't bother with an O/;H attempt it might be 50/50 at best on any durability the way a lot of shops rebuild them. However, make sure you look carefully at the turbo hoses to/from the intercooler to make sure they are not split or leaking anywhere, ditto with the intercooler itseld; look for signs of leaks. Looks you have the original turbo hoses on the car.

The hesitation is probably related to the turbo. It acts weird when the saft bearings get that bad. Read the TEP site thoroughly for diagnosis info.

The dash boost gage is electronic, run by the ECU, and it figures boost by checking airflow from the MAF and looks at RPM and computes how much boost there must be. So it is not a highly accurate indicator, and has some odd quirks. But if it is only showing 7 psi, that is good enough to know that the turbo is gone. The bearings are shot and the shaft is dragging, preventing it from working.

If the engine is sound and you put a super 16G turbo on it, you will be pretty amazed, if all you are getting now is 7 psi. But, with 192k miles in the engine, you had better keep the boost down to 13 psi; I am serious here. Get a REAL boost gage installed before you do this; it can be a nominally priced one form any parts store.

FYI, the simple boost controllers only allow you to raise the boost above what the stock controller allows, not lower it below stock boost. However, you CAN lower boost by loosening up the boost control actuator rod that connects to the wastegate lever; works fine to drop 1-2 psi of boost. An underhood boost controller is fine. You should not be fooling with it that much. The boost controller does not effect spool up; it opens a wastegate at the top end of the boost range.

The Starquest intercoolers are a desirable item; very good flow and very good cooling. You should try to retain it if as all possible and, yes, put it in front of the radiator. The car cools fine with it there with the standard Starquest radiator.

We use the 3 wire O2 sensor; that was waht Iwas referring to in the prior post.

So in looking at the Colt engine pix......I gotta ask like Dave: WHY? Is the NA 2.4L motor just shot or?? If the motor is solid, then fixing carbs and such is simple compared to the conversion you are looking at.

And Dave, why do you think this is a bad conversion to go with the turbo 2.6L? With flat topped forged pistons giving a true 8.2 CR, and with the super 16G turbo, I can warrant that this is a VERY responsive engine, with a torque range from under 2k to at least 5k rpm. Is it a matter of just too much torque? Just curious to know youe reasoning;it might be of benefit to Morten. Besides, with an open 2-12/" OD exhaust after the trubo, the turbo burble at idle is pretty cool. But, a non-NA Colt seems wrong in a way......

Regards,
Mark B.

starion887 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Morten,
>
> And Dave, why do you think this is a bad
> conversion to go with the turbo 2.6L? With flat
> topped forged pistons giving a true 8.2 CR, and
> with the super 16G turbo, I can warrant that this
> is a VERY responsive engine, with a torque range
> from under 2k to at least 5k rpm. Is it a matter
> of just too much torque? Just curious to know youe
> reasoning;it might be of benefit to Morten.
> Besides, with an open 2-12/" OD exhaust after the
> trubo, the turbo burble at idle is pretty cool.
> But, a non-NA Colt seems wrong in a way......
>
> Regards,
> Mark B.

Having spoken to Dave just yesterday on this very subject of his reply, and once he could stop laughing and coughing, and his eyes returned to something less than dinner plate size, he said words to the effect of "If they guy can't keep a stone axe simple car like the Vodge Dolt keep going (Dave is as intimately familiar with that car as I am, he has rallied it and even driven it in ditches on both sides of the road at high speeds---hey he did get it out of the ditch)(and he did paint it real pretty like to make up for cruising thru the ditches), then what are the chances that the same guy will be able to do a whole management conversion----and then keep THAT infinitely more complex car going?

Oddly several other real live mechanic type guys also brought it up.
Touching to know that car had such a warm place in folks hearts from when it was originally built and run.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.