74 Colt -> 2.6L Starion engine and transmission swap

WHy do you need the swap?

I'm not thinking your being limited by the HP?

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-Jason

Fcuk !!!

I had hoped, I mean really hoped that we could be adults who live in the present and not in the past.

If you feel the need to shit talk me and highlight it, then please post in the "off topic" section.

John I don't dislike you, I actually enjoy your twisted sense of humour on occasion -> It makes for laughter and many smiles.

The failures from the Colt (the 2 DNF's and one roadside breakdown) were all from internal engine breakdowns and had NOTHING to do with my ability (or inability) to keep the car going.

Cascade Motorsports rebuilt / or had someone rebuild the carbs for the previous owner and they had NO problems at all.

Alrighty then... back to the swap.

: )

mack73 Wrote:
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> WHy do you need the swap?
>
> I'm not thinking your being limited by the HP?
>
> 94 Golf
> www.Mack73.com


"Overkill is consistently more fun" :-)

Keep going with the swap.

efi is not infinitely more complicated than a carb.

You'll get the car to run again. Could take a year but you'll get it eventually.

Plus sounds like, from reading other posts some of the other guys know this thing inside and out.

Keep the rest of the starion whole. Sell it as a rolling shell. The body looks so sweet you'll actually be able to recoup a lot of your money on it.

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Michael LeCompte

Morten2 Wrote:
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> "Overkill is consistently more fun" :-)

True True, Good luck with the swap

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-Jason

john vanlandingham Wrote:
"If the guy can't keep a
> stone axe simple car like the Vodge Dolt keep
> going then what are the
> chances that the same guy will be able to do a
> whole management conversion----and then keep THAT
> infinitely more complex car going?
>
> John Vanlandingham

Not trying to be gratuitously contrary but......
Having run a high performance carbed engine for years, and having run the Starion for years too, I feel that the INJECTED electronic EMS is more reliable than the carbed system IF THE EMS SYSTEM IS PROPERLY INSTALLED. So I see the hard part of this being the conversion process. If done RIGHT, I think the car will be as reliable or more reliable.

Engine/fuel system failures in our carbed, hi-perf NA engine (Opel 1.9L)
a) Broken carb floats
b) Broken headers
c) Burned pistons
d) Oil over-pressure (stupid me)
Same system failures in the Starion 2.6L ESI:
a) Blown head gasket between cylinders
b) Broken turbo oil line (2x)
c) BOV connetion wrong (stupid me)

Internally, I don't see any reliability difference in the 2 engines. The 2.4L is an odd combo of parts so has that as a minor mark against it. And the folks who know the parts and how to support it are much farther and fewer between than the 2.6L Starquest.

Same can be said for the fuel systems, IMO. There are fewer and fewer folks who know these hi-perf carbs and how to tune them and maintain them. Just keeping a dual carb system well sync'd can be a real challenge; get them a bit out of sync makes idle and off idle operation pretty crappy. The Starquest system is still popular and there are several good sources of parts and info. If one reads the TEP site, and FOLLOWS the advice therein, they have a very good source of advice on these systems.

Troubleshooting is a wash IMO, The Starquest system has more bits to go wrong, but they rarely go wrong. On the other hand, I have seen guys sell older cars that ran crappy, just beacuse they did not understand how to set a simple set of points in an older distributor.

Just my $0.02.....If 'twer me, I'd keep the 2.4L NA engine and learn how to maintain it. But, those who will tend to take this attitude are the more epxerienced gearheads. For someone who is not as mechanically experienced (or does not want to wallow in the myriad of mechanical knowledge details), they would be better served IMO to have a more modern, low mainteance system.

So the real problem with the change IMO is the conversion process. If done poorly, then I agree it will be a source of constant problems, crappy running, and DNF's, and one would be worse off. But if done well, then I think it will be very reliable, based on direct experience. I was fearful of the Starquest when I first got it, but it has been really a low maintenance EMS.

However, to your and Dave's point John, many of the other BIIIG issues with the conversion will be things like driveshafts, tunnel modifications for the shifter and maybe wider/longer trannie, brake master cylinder clearance, clutch conversion (the older Colts wer all cables, I think; the Starquest is hydraulic), mounts, and so on. These WILL take LOTS of work and CAN be sources of problems if not done well. Sounds like someone out there has done this before, but it's easy to see the potential biiig problems.

Regards,
Mark B.

Ain't going to quote, but Mark, you are right, good OEMs are mor bettah than carbs.

But the question is cost/effort to bore existing block 020, find a fresh lumity cam and asemble vs yard out the whole management system, and graft it into the old car then make THAT run.

Specifically not you doing the work, you who is familiar and who is fully competent to keep the thing going all these years, but rather Morten, pulling it out, picking thru the wires to extract just the management wires from the loom, installing engine straight, grafting in and routing the harness, making run and keeping going.

But arguing with somebody when there is no real reason more than "I wanna" is pointless, and I had enough already advising, all it got me was slander and smears all over now forever enshrined on the Intra-webs.

All I can say is Rotsa RucK Round Eye!

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

"However, to your and Dave's point John, many of the other BIIIG issues with the conversion will be things like driveshafts, tunnel modifications for the shifter and maybe wider/longer trannie, brake master cylinder clearance, clutch conversion (the older Colts wer all cables, I think; the Starquest is hydraulic), mounts, and so on."

Granted the conversion from cable to hydrolic is a bit intimidating to me. In communicating with Charlie North from First Function Motorsports, he's suggested a Wilwood or Tilton set up. As for the tailhousing being 5" longer on the starion box, I understand that the tailhousing from the D50 KM132 bolts to the tail housing of the Starions KM132-N (if one didn't want to change the shifter location).

I agree that the key to this swap is it's execution. Which is why I have a desire to do some modifications to the engine while it is still in the Starion so that I can learn through practice.

This is not going to be an overnight swap (not in the least). The Colt has been sitting for 2.5 years now. The purchase of the Starion donor is the first of many steps to get the Colt back on the road.

Yes the TBI scares the shit out of me, but then again when I looked at the Weber book that came with the Colt... taking the carbs apart I would imagine would scare the shit of out most people too. It's all relative. As a carpenter I have no problem supporting and changing the point load of a structure, because that's what I'm familiar with. I'm not familiar with the TBI, turbo's, welding, etc -> but that doesn't mean that I can't learn. Does it ?

I have a strong desire to do this swap and make it successful. If I didn't need advice or help I wouldn't be posting here.

So positive imput is naturally appreciated. :-)

As for the clutch hydraulic conversion, the hydraulics are simple. The hard part will be figuring where to put a hydraulic master cylinder, and link it to the clutch There is not much room between the rear of the left inner fender and the firewall for this. So you may end up with it inside under the dash. It will take some real febrication and time.

As for the brake MC, the IDF's carbs probably avoided the need to move the brake MC to the left. But with the Starquest engine in the narrower engine bay, you may havae ot shift the engine a bit to the left and you may have to relocate the brake MC to the left. This takes a bit of work, but I have done it twice for sidedraft Webers on a 1.6L engine.

As for tailhousings, if you put on a shorter tailhousing, you have to swap the main/output shaft in the trannie too. I don't know the differences between the Starion and D50 mainshafts, but I would not be surprised at all if they were so different as to require you to take the gearsets too, and then you probably lose the superior qualities of the later Starquest trannies. And I bet you won't be able to put the Starion speeod sensor in the D50 tailshaft housing. So this idea sounds fishy to me. Need a lot more investigation, IMO.

Mark B.

Morten,

From your comments I get the feeling that you don't have the skills needed to complete this project. If you just want to tinker in the shop then go for it. It would be a really cool car if you get it completed.

If your plan is to go rally then I say stick with what you have. I don't see the point in taking two perfectly good cars and making one car that may or may not work. I am a master mechanic, welder and beginning machinist. It would take me quite a while to complete that project.

I don't want to sound like a dick but I think that you should take a step back and reevaluate.

Good luck, Robert.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Morten,
>
> From your comments I get the feeling that you
> don't have the skills needed to complete this
> project. If you just want to tinker in the shop
> then go for it. It would be a really cool car if
> you get it completed.
>
> If your plan is to go rally then I say stick with
> what you have. I don't see the point in taking
> two perfectly good cars and making one car that
> may or may not work. I am a master mechanic,
> welder and beginning machinist. It would take me
> quite a while to complete that project.

Well I h'aint a master mechanic, but I did manage to do a Cosworth engine and trans swap into the Xratty but it was fortuitious that both cars were low volume cars with separate engine management looms.
I have been under a Misterbitchy or 3 and I know their entire management sysytem is 100% in house and that it looks a serious rat's nest and that there is little good info, and that I would not undertake the swap process.
>
> I don't want to sound like a dick but I think that
> you should take a step back and reevaluate.

The always unasked question, seems to be impolite to ask is WHY do this when simpler solutions TO GET THE CAR WORKING if that's what the goal is.
I can't figure what the point is, tho.
>
> Good luck, Robert.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Thank you for all of your input and opinions of this swap.

Negative or positive they're both appreciated.

I'm not looking to have the perfect historic rally car, not even the perfect Group 5 car. I want to have a fun, fast car that is rally capable, hill climb capable, that I could even take to the dragstrip if I was so inclined.

I grew up owning 1970's car's and like the look of them.

There's more than one 70's Colt with Starion drivetrain, some with 4G63T's, some with Mopar V8's. It's not going to be an easy swap, and yes it intimidates me but the car's been sitting for 2.5 years and even if this swap takes another 2 years... It'll be ready for Mountain Trials in Merritt in 2011. That is unless the LHC at Cern creates a black hole or strangelets that'll lead to all of our demise before then.

I don't think there's anyone here that wants to see me fail with this swap, is there ?

Because if that's the case - that'd be pretty shitty !

There is one other option - I could always park the car indefinately and make it into a dog house :

Morten,

I highly doubt anyone want's to see you fail at the swap.

I think the message that's being said between the lines is: exactly why are you going out of your way to make the project more difficult when you have an easier (quite possibly cheaper) option that should be as much fun as you need for a few years at least.

I'm really prone to this problem which I think you're suffering from. Striving for some sort of idealised perfection, when you've got perfectly good shit to work with already.

I know you've had some serious problems with your motor.. what's the state of it now? Is it mostly fixed up or a total cluster fuck?

You realize it's a bolt in and go solution right?

That Starion looks tits btw.. why not enjoy it and the colt?

Cheers,

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Not my Colt !

2.6L Starion engine in a 74' Colt :

I like the first engine bay pic better





and I'm a modern FI turbo guy.................

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Gone fishing