Anyone running water injection?

My tuner recommended I install one for rally...not for more power, but as added engine protection to help detonation, keep engine clean, etc.

I'm running a big top mount, and while its fine at speed, it certainly heats up at slower speeds (or sitting around in traffic) and I figure it WILL get hot running a rally.

no plans to run race gas either.

Lots of used stuff available on all the suby forums, but wanted to hear from the RA crowd first. This is also something that can wait too, but I usually do my research way in advance.

thx, Jon

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2009 01:55AM by Jon Burke.

What's a meth kit? Sounds like something you get in more white trashy areas and can result in deformed children and big explosions.
Methanol injection? Some rally cars have been known to use water injection. A few of the top cars here are running E85 now with good success.

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Grant Hughes

I know Kenny Bartram's gc (used to be iorio's) has water injection.
You have to follow guidelines for flammable liquids if using methanol.
I'd start with adding an intercooler sprayer first and then seeing if you still have problems.

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's a meth kit? Sounds like something you get
> in more white trashy areas and can result in
> deformed children and big explosions.
> Methanol injection? Some rally cars have been
> known to use water injection. A few of the top
> cars here are running E85 now with good success.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

yeah....water injection...methanol, 50/50....whatever.

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know Kenny Bartram's gc (used to be iorio's) has
> water injection.
> You have to follow guidelines for flammable
> liquids if using methanol.
> I'd start with adding an intercooler sprayer first
> and then seeing if you still have problems.

I'd probably start with just water since, again, not looking for power, and that would obviously be easier than dealing with 'flammable liquid' rules.


And I considered just getting an IC sprayer kit too, but they're pretty expensive too...so figure I might as well go with the injection kit.

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

I think I'm must be missing a bit of knowledge in understanding how a spray or kit is able to safeguard against detonation.

Granted I'm still learning - alot.

My understanding is that an intercooler recovers density. As heat from the engine airstream is removed, the air becomes denser. This cool air reduces the chance of detonation under boost.

That said, shouldn't the ambient temperature of the cooled air be somewhat constant ?

Does the spray, spray the intercooler continuously ?

Wouldn't installing a larger / more efficient intercooler be a more practical option in protecting the engine ?

are you planning on running water or meth injection on a car that will be rallied at RA or NRS events? if so, you should take a look at the rules.

I'm not going to read through the rules of whatever sanctioning body you're running in but consider this (by Canadian rules anyway)

"You may not have an auxillary tank or extra tank or 2 tanks or whatever" Meth would have to be in a fuel cell.

We have no restriction on fuel, not so in U.S AFAIK.

Meth is a coolant and a fuel. Water is a coolant. Lots of people are using water injection, I've never seen anyone run meth.That tells me that if meth was legal, people would be using it. Running water injections a good idea but so is E85 if you don't want to spend money on race gas. E85 from the little I know about it can be more difficult to tune but it's cheap and will allow alot of boost.

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Gone fishing

When you run the E85 you need to carry more though, as you need to run it richer. Gasoline has more energy in it, but the alcohol is more knock proof. I thought about running alchohol but decided I didnt want to buy 55 gallon drums since I havent seen a station selling it around the eastside, haha

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

OK, post changed to clarify a little....not really looking to run full meth, but everyone I know calls its a 'meth kit'...anyway.


But just for discussion....is, say....25% meth, 75% water flammable? would that count as fuel?


Morten, w/o getting too technical....water injection essentially raises the Octane of the fuel. The injector is usually put right before the intake manifold and atomizes the liquid....as with regular injectors, you can get ones with different flow rates. As you add more meth, it then becomes more flammable and you can then advance timing more and create more power.

Different systems run in different ways, but basically you can get them to come on at different boost levels, or hook it up to your MAF, or whatever.

Injection kits run from $400 to $1000....for something like rally, you'd want also want a large tank in the trunk.

top of the line aquamist kit:
http://www.rallysportdirect.com/shop/aquamist-hfs5-water-injection-system-p-3120.html

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

david amor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not going to read through the rules of
> whatever sanctioning body you're running in but
> consider this (by Canadian rules anyway)
>
> "You may not have an auxillary tank or extra tank
> or 2 tanks or whatever" Meth would have to be in a
> fuel cell.
>
> We have no restriction on fuel, not so in U.S
> AFAIK.
>
> Meth is a coolant and a fuel. Water is a coolant.
> Lots of people are using water injection, I've
> never seen anyone run meth.That tells me that if
> meth was legal, people would be using it. Running
> water injections a good idea but so is E85 if you
> don't want to spend money on race gas. E85 from
> the little I know about it can be more difficult
> to tune but it's cheap and will allow alot of
> boost.
>
>
>
>
>
> "As the spirit wanes, the form apears" -Charles
> Bukowski


from RA Rule book:

Quote

5.7. FUEL CONTAINERS
A. No fuel other than that carried in the OE fuel tank or FIA FT-3 or higher
fuel cell bladder shall be carried in any vehicle.
For any fuel cell located inside the car (e.g., the passenger compartment
or trunk), a fireproof and liquid-proof case must surround the fuel cell and
its filler. A fireproof and liquid-proof bulkhead may be used separate the
cockpit from the fuel cell in place of the fireproof and liquid-proof case.
The filler cap and filler pipe or hose is considered part of the fuel cell and
must also be separated from the cockpit by the case or bulkhead.
Original equipment fuel tank must only be used in their OE positions, and
must be separated from the cockpit by the floorpan or a metal bulkhead.
All fuel tanks must be securely mounted to the primary structure of the
vehicle. Any fuel tank or cell exposed on the bottom of the vehicle shall
be equipped with a stone shield designed to prevent puncture or damage
from flying stones and road debris. FIA FT-3 or higher approved fuel
cells are recommended.

so that to me says I'd just have to have the right container....or a firewall....but no limit on # of fuel containers?

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Jon. It's really not needed, even with a top mount. Water sprayer onto the intercooler if you're really worried about it. Remember that all the SP guys run top mounts with no added water or methanol injection and look at how MJ can do with his car. The crazy and skill of the driver will make a car faster than anything else.

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Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jon. It's really not needed, even with a top
> mount. Water sprayer onto the intercooler if
> you're really worried about it. Remember that all
> the SP guys run top mounts with no added water or
> methanol injection and look at how MJ can do with
> his car. The crazy and skill of the driver will
> make a car faster than anything else.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO


you're up late!

yeah, its just another insurance piece....I've had bad luck with engines...I've rebuilt 2 on this car already This engine needs to last.

I'll keep looking around for good deals on either the kit or an IC sprayer.

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Jon Burke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> And I considered just getting an IC sprayer kit
> too, but they're pretty expensive too...

Expensive? Dude, they can be as simple as turning a windshield sprayer on the intercooler. If you want to get crazy look through some electronic parts catalogs and find a temp switch that closes at whatever temp you want, then some simple wiring and you have temperature activated cooling.

You dont need some super fancy load, rpm, temp, phase of the moon sensitive multiple hundred dollar device. Those are for the guys more worried about their cred on the internet forums. Use your noggin and just make something simple and effective.

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jon Burke Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > And I considered just getting an IC sprayer
> kit
> > too, but they're pretty expensive too...
>
> Expensive? Dude, they can be as simple as turning
> a windshield sprayer on the intercooler. If you
> want to get crazy look through some electronic
> parts catalogs and find a temp switch that closes
> at whatever temp you want, then some simple wiring
> and you have temperature activated cooling.
>
> You dont need some super fancy load, rpm, temp,
> phase of the moon sensitive multiple hundred
> dollar device. Those are for the guys more
> worried about their cred on the internet forums.
> Use your noggin and just make something simple and
> effective.
>

And if you're going to do engine management, which you really have to do on a restrictor car, you might as well get one that controls stuff like H2O spray. Mine runs off 2 pumps and activates at anything above 5psi of boost.



But how far along are you with everything else???

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Gone fishing